Bibical Symbolism of Water

Shannon: This is episode 25 of the Catholic Frequency podcast; this conversation was originally recorded on the social media platform X.

Well, good Thursday evening. We're coming together for a very interesting discussion tonight. Our guest is Deacon Harrison Garlic, the Chancellor and General Counsel of the Diocese of Tulsa. He's also the host of the Ascend Great Books podcast, and my friend Sean is here to cohost.

So, Deacon Garlic, thank you for being here.

Deacon Garlick: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Shannon: We've been following each other for well, hey, Sean. I didn't mean to skip you. How's it going?

Sean : Hey, Shannon. Happy to be here as well, and great to see you as well, Deacon Garlic.

Shannon: Well, Deacon, I've been following you a while, and, I love, love your posts. And and a while back, maybe it was six months, maybe it was a year ago, you you posted this very intriguing I don't know if it was one of your homilies or if it was an essay on water in salvation history, and I just found it so fascinating and, intriguing. So I'm happy that you're here and you're willing to share that. Was that an essay, or was that a homily? What what was that?

Deacon Garlick: It was it was both. So I I had an essay up online for a while on the subject, and then I'm a deacon at our cathedral, Holy Family Cathedral in Tulsa, and we have a little classical school that's booming. And so, sometimes I'm able to incorporate some of those classical teachings into my homily, and so I give a homily on the subject as well.

Shannon: Give us a brief primer on classical education and why that's so critical, how it differs from our our modern education system.

Deacon Garlick: Sure. So truth is the conformity of the mind to reality. That's our working definition of truth. I think classical education does this better probably than any other educational model. In a lot of ways, it was just the normative way that we did education prior to the nineteen sixties.

But it's deeply rooted in the liberal arts, so the seven liberal arts, if you will. And it I think the ways that really it really distinguishes itself is one, is that it has a very particular pedagogy. Right? So the pedagogue, right, is the the Greek slave that takes your hand and walks you to school. So pedagogy is like your your method of teaching.

And so I think classical school has some unique pedagogies that really make it stand out. So for instance, at most classical schools, there's no screens. So they actually issue technology. And so you're actually getting, I think, more real engagement between the teacher and students. You're not looking at things that are artificial.

And in that too, depending on the, you know, classical education isn't monolithic. But for instance, the ones, here at our cathedral that I'm used to, there's a real focus on realism and what's real. So for instance, if you go into, like, our even our our even our preschool, our Montessori, all the desks are made out of wood. We don't have any plastic. Everything's actually, even our glasses for our three to five year olds are actually glass.

Because if they drop it, then they just have to learn how to pick up a mess. Like, everything around them is real. They're real materials. There's lots of natural light. They're surrounded by classic and sacred art.

There's no screens. There's lots of plants and something in in some classes, there's even, like, pets and animals. So I think overall, right, if truth is a conformity of the mind to reality, classical education through the liberal arts and some really distinct pedagogies that are kinda rooted in realism, I think really allows children to blossom and further imaginations, to be formed.

Shannon: I've also seen you post this, idea, this concept about freedom and how our modern day concept of freedom is so distorted. You know, the the modernism, they tell us that freedom is the freedom to do whatever the heck you wanna do. If it feels good, do it. The freedom to engage your carnal desires. How is that different than than the notion, and how classical educators would teach the the notion of freedom?

Deacon Garlick: Yeah. That's a good question. So, yeah, as moderns, we have a very Luciferian understanding of freedom. Right? It's typically, a plurality of options to satiate my desire.

So the more options I have, the more free I am. Whether it's good or bad, is is kind of a neutral, opinion. Like, that doesn't really matter. As opposed to, like, the church's understanding of freedom, is very much rooted in your capacity to choose the good. Right?

It's a natural faculty that you have, that is oriented towards that which is good. So a certain way when you choose evil, right, you choose an apparent good, but something that's actually evil for you. In a certain way, you're you're you're acting in a certain antifreegdom. Right? You're actually perverting what freedom was actually for.

And so I think one of the things as moderns that we constantly have to do is, the mind moves from grammar to logic to rhetoric. So first, we have to understand terms, and then we can apply them, and then we could speak about them. And so one thing I think that's really dangerous for us as Catholics living in the modern age is that all of our terms, have been redefined. And so it's very difficult then to think logically about reality. Right?

So we're constantly told freedom this, freedom that. But what we're actually getting is this, like, Luciferian freedom. And so you one of the first ways, I think, that people can start to kind of, unshackle themselves from our modern age is simply to start going through your vocabulary and making sure that you're using a vocabulary that's rooted in the church, because that will be rooted in what's real, and then that will naturally help you think through things, more logically. And, obviously, classical education picks this up, very clearly trying to habituate children at an early age, to definitions that help them understand things that are real as opposed to all the artificialities that we have around us today.

Shannon: I'm not sure who said that quote, but he who controls language rules the world. We've seen a lot of that, especially in the media over the last few decades and them changing terms and saying, you know, if if the forces of good are winning, they they wanna change the language so that they can change sort of change the rules of the game. Sean, go ahead.

Sean : Yeah. I just really wanted to add a concrete example to that. The notion of really starting, it it helps to understand and define your terms, especially as a spouse through the Catholic faith. For me, one thing one point of confusion I had for a large amount of my twenties was understanding love. And, particularly, the terms that really helped give me a breakthrough was the understanding or or the distinction between eros and agape because love is one of those words that well, if you like, more like the Greek language, there's there's a variety of different terms for different aspects of love.

And today, we hear, well, love is love. Love is love. And so it's very easy to even just get confused today when you're trying to understand, well, what does love mean in relationship to my neighbor, in relationship to my spouse, and so on and so forth? Like, is it weird to tell my, like, friend that I love him? Like, is that weird?

Like, so when when you start to understand the distinctions of, like, say, erotic love or a willing the good of the other or charity and understanding these more classical definitions, I found that that really does give you a a very clear sense of understanding that can then lead to freedom as you can better articulate yourself and, well, express what you genuinely mean when you're trying to understand notions of love, which is an important one, and so on and so forth. So I really just wanted to add a concrete example to that because I love that, and I think this language is quite important to reclaim.

Shannon: Well, before we dig into what we're gonna talk about, water telling the whole story of salvation history, Deacon, will you tell us just a little bit about your your podcast, Ascend the Great Books podcast?

Deacon Garlick: Of course. I mean, one good segue there would be, that next week, we're hosting a space on erotic love, actually giving a Christian defense of arrows. And so we'll be looking at Plato, Plato's Symposium, also looking at a lot of the Greek fathers, that draw heavily from Plato and understanding Eros Dionysus, actually gives a defense of Eros. And then we also see it in Pope Benedict sixteenth, quite recently in Deus. So next week, we'll be hosting, a space on Eros if anyone wants to join.

That's next Thursday, I believe. So Ascend, the great books podcast, is a weekly podcast that helps people read the great books. So we kinda function as a small group. That's our vision. So there was a group of men that started meeting at my house every, one Sunday a month to read the great books.

We meet for thirty minutes, have, you know, Scotch, charcuterie boards, fraternity, grow together, and then have about three hours of dialogue on whatever text we're reading. And, you know, I really push them to read things chronologically and slowly. So we spent a year on Homer. We ran the Iliad for six months and then the Odyssey for six months. And there's a lot of pushback on doing that.

But then once they saw, like, the glories of a slow attentive read and saw that Homer really is a teacher, if you're paying attention, I think, to his nuances, they really came, to love it. And so I I started posting on x and just saying, like, hey. You know, I'm really enjoying this group, etcetera. There's how many people commented, like, I'd really love to read, The Iliad or The Odyssey. I'd really like to read the classics, the great books, but I don't have anyone to read them with.

And even people that would be group of friends. Right? There's, like, three or four of us, and we will read The Iliad together. I mean, you guys coming together and reading The Iliad when no one's familiar with the text can be really daunting. And so what Ascend is supposed to do is come alongside people and say, well, we can be your small group.

Like, we can either join your small group or you can just read it with us, and we so our podcast comes out basically at a a reading pace, an attentive reading pace. We also grow in chronological order. So the podcast literally just spent a year reading Homer, six months in the Iliad and six months in the Odyssey and really digging into it. We read one book or chapter, a week, and now we're going through the Greek plays. And so we are finishing up Aeschylus' Oresteia, his triad of three Greek plays.

We're spending, six weeks, two weeks on each play, which is a very slow, reading cycle, but enough where you can kind of dig into it. And then we're gonna read Dante's Inferno for Lent. So if anyone hasn't made any decisions yet on what to do for Lent, you can join Ascend, the great books podcast. Just sign up on either Spotify or Apple or YouTube, here on x. And, the first episode comes out the Tuesday before Ash Wednesday, and we'll have seven episodes guiding everyone through, Dante's Inferno.

And we'll have different professors and, Internet personalities, who join us to guide us through that. So it's been really humbling. You know, the great books' authors are the teachers. I'm just a student, and so it's really humbling to learn alongside everyone. The outpouring, has been tremendous, and I I greatly enjoy it.

And if that sounds interesting to you, you know, please follow us here on x.

Shannon: Also, the podcast has a website, thegreatbookspodcast.com. Is that video podcast, video and audio, or just audio?

Deacon Garlick: It's video as well. So you can if you check us out on YouTube, we record, via video our episodes as well. Most of them. Some of our spaces, we republish, as podcast episodes, but the mass majority of everything we do is also available, via video. And starting with Dante, we'll start publishing those here on x as well.

Shannon: Well, let's dive into the topic of tonight, which is the biblical imagery of water. Where did you sort of have this, sort of epiphany, this inspiration to, write on this and connect all these biblical stories from Genesis chapter one all the way through the ministry of Jesus?

Deacon Garlick: That's a great question. So I you know, my day to day, is I'm the legal counsel for the Diocese of of Tulsa. So most of my job is untying knots. It's conflict. I run our HR, child needs protection, insurance, and legal.

And so we had an issue. A few years ago, I was in the deaconate formation program, and I was supposed to be going to a deaconate retreat. So we were going to this monastery, and we're gonna spend the weekend, up there and kinda get away from the world. And I just remember that trip up there being so chaotic, because we had had a priest and several members of his parish, receive death threats, from someone in the community that was not mentally stable. And so I'm trying to go to the retreat, but I'm on the phone coordinating between law enforcement and the pastor and various people and giving updates to my bishop and etcetera.

And then when I I arrived at the monastery, I couldn't go to evening prayer because then I had to sit down and go to my cell, luckily, they had Internet, and, complete all the action items that I had told people I would do on my drive up. And so I had to write various legal documents and email some law enforcement agents and things like this. And I I am not sure exactly how to describe it. It I mean, it was something evil. I mean, it was something, demonic in retrospect.

Right? But this, like, feeling of, like, pity, in the worst sense of that word came over me in which it was like, look at where you are. Like, you're in this monastery. There's people living these, like, good and holy pious lives that are ordered and calmed. You know, your brothers are in there doing prayer.

And, like, what are you doing? Like, you're sitting here in this hectic, chaotic mess. Like, how is this not unfair to you? And I it didn't last very long, but it was like this flash of this emotion. And, obviously, like, I owned it and said, you know, where is this coming from?

What is this? I really do think the holy spirit, like, moved in me and made me recall a lesson I had learned way, way before in my undergraduate at still as a Protestant about the biblical imagery of water. And I didn't remember everything about the lesson, but I remember very clearly being led to go back and to look at that. And it was that prompting, by the holy spirit in that little monastic cell that really led me to go back and start doing my studies, because I really only remembered one little thread. But it was enough of a thread to pull and kinda see how everything, you know, unraveled and so, like, this this, you know, bigger picture to mix metaphors.

And so that was really kind of the setup and really made me think like, okay. I need to go back. I need to study this imagery about water, because I remember it being important, but I think it has something, to tell me, right, about the current, like, spiritual, challenges that I was having.

Shannon: Alright. Well, let's let's dig into it. I don't know how however you wanna do it. If you wanna just sort of walk us through piece by piece what however you wanna take us through because this this is gonna be fascinating.

Deacon Garlick: Okay. Good. Yeah. We'll just explain the Bible. I think that's probably a good way.

Right? So we'll just explain the Bible from beginning to end. So we start at the beginning. Right? So in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the spirit of god was moving over the face of the waters.

So, obviously, the lord, created out of nothing, but a lot of times, people will notice that before we engage in the classic seven days of creation, water already exists. Right? Water is there. These primordial chaotic waters are already there, and God comes and, flutters, if you will will. The spirit of God flutters above these waters.

And it's from this, like, formless void and dark, you know, this chaotic water that God is going to pull forth, creation. And so, you know, the contrast, I think, in the the opening of of scripture kinda grants us our template, our pattern for understanding the biblical allegory of water. So what we're gonna look at in scripture is our thesis is gonna be that water represents chaos, disorder, darkness, and death. But just as God drew forth creation from the face of the deep, so too does God draw order, beauty, light, and life from that which is chaotic. And so I think our our working thesis here at the beginning is simply that in Genesis, we do see a template.

We see a pattern that God takes things that are chaotic and dark and brings forth from them, things that are salvific. Right? Things that are beautiful and ordered. And so, obviously, like, the one that jumps to everyone's mind almost immediately, is Noah's ark because this is where the primordial waters, come back. Right?

The earth is consumed by the primordial waters of chaos. They come back to cover, the face of the earth. And so god, you know, through the creation narrative, right, the great flood, he has to kind of again draw forth order and beauty, from a chaotic deep. And we see a lot of times too in the early church fathers. We see a lot of times that obviously, the ark, Noah's ark, is presented as the church.

Is presented as the body of Christ. And it is only in the body of Christ in this arc, that we find our salvation from what surrounds us, from this chaotic, darkness in death. Right? This world that we we see around us. And it's only in that arc that we find, our salvation.

Just as an aside, you know, something that I really I'm not sure I enjoy it about Noah's Ark, but something that really kinda sticks in my imagination that's usually kinda left out of all the out of all the, like, children's tales is I always remember that it was God that shut the door, that it's God himself. Right? These people are, like, outside mocking Noah, etcetera. The rains start, and it's God. It's not Noah.

It's God that actually shuts the door to the ark. Right? It's up it's up to him who is and who is not safe. So I think that Noah's ark obviously presents, a very probably expected kind of pattern into this. Another good example, kind of moving on from Noah, is Moses.

Now I would probably make the thesis here that Moses's whole life is based off of this picture, is based off this kind of pedagogical understanding of water. Right? So as an aside, we have to understand how to read scripture. This is kind of an art that we've missed a lot as moderns. Right?

We typically read things very literally, and we get really tied up into that. Think of, like, German, you know, higher criticism and these kind the GDP theory and these things. Things. We get really tied up in the literal. And then usually, we kinda pull out some kind of moral from it.

Like, well, how is this gonna help me, you know, be a better person or better Catholic or something like that? But we have to remember that scripture has, you know, four senses. Right? So it has the literal, what's actually happening, and then it has an allegorical. Right?

How how is this one thing a type of another? Sometimes called typology. Right? How is this one thing another? So right now, we're talking about water is a type of chaos.

It's a type of, disorder and death. And then after the allegorical, you have moral. You say, you know, how does this apply to me? How how can this make my life better? And then you have anagogical, which is not a word we use very often.

But the anagogical has to deal with your, final end, right, your final telos, your salvation in God. And so these kind of four it's the quadriga. So if you've ever watched Ben Hur, right, they have the chariots with the four horses. So this is the quadriga, the four senses of scripture. And so what we're doing here is like, okay.

We're taking literal stories, and we're looking for allegorical hints of how is this thing maybe a sign of another thing. And then I think we'll get to, in a certain point, what I what I think is the moral of this tale. Like, what what is it, that actually teaches us about this? And then scripture itself kinda provides the analogical. So when we look at Moses, I mean, Moses' whole life is simply saturated in the typology of water.

So if you if you just look at it, right, I mean, how does his life start off? Well, the first thing he does is he's cast into the depths of the Nile, which should have been his death. Right? I mean, he's he's cast into, the Nile, right, this dangerous body of water, in a basket, and he survives. Right?

His very childhood, is an analogy for Noah's ark. And so once again, we see God is able, to pull salvation, what should have been certain death, into life. We also then see his name, right, to be drawn forth. His name, right, is is, again, very evocative of this imagery of water. And so we see too is that that Moses being pulled out of the water into his own salvation as an infant foreshadows, the story of Israel and Egypt.

So Israel too, right, is gonna have to go through this dangerous time, and then we'll be pulled forth from the water, from the Red Sea into, the promised land. And so we see that Moses, as the deliverer of the people, as an infant, foreshadows, serves as a type himself for the salvation that will come to Israel. And all this has to do very heavily with water because even think of the Red Sea. So not only were they trapped against the Red Sea, and then, again, what should have been their death became their salvation that god parted the waves. But I think too, the Egyptians here provide a very clear analog where the Egyptians try to navigate the waters without facing God, without relying on him.

And what happens? They're consumed. Right? They're consumed by the waves. The chaotic depths come back, and they enter into death.

And so I think that you see both things there. Right? Crossing the Red Sea through, reliance on God takes what should have been your death and makes it your salvation. And then with the Egyptians, you see the opposite. They try and do it without God, and therefore, it becomes, their death.

And we see a really small picture of this too with the Jordan River. So if you remember not not as famous as the Red Sea, but if you remember the Jordan River, they're going into the promised land, and, Josh was leading them. And they have to cross this the Jordan River, and so they have the ark go first. And not only does the river part, but also, the ground is, you know, dry and dusty underneath their feet. And so we see this other picture.

Right? And, actually, the ark stays in the middle as people cross. And so you see this other beautiful picture, if you will, of god taking what should have been an impediment. Right? Something that was an impediment to our salvation, that was stopping us from doing this.

This kind of what would be a a death to try and cross ourselves to if we cross it with god, then, it can serve as, a vehicle of our salvation. The other the other one I would look at here too, which I think is a little bit off the beaten path, is Job. I'd look at Job. And Job doesn't have a very clear water metaphor, but it does have something I find to be very interesting is that, it juxtaposes very heavily at the beginning of Job, right, when he cries out, kind of in the thick of darkness and for blackness to swallow up, today of his birth. There's a very interesting verse right after that, that amongst the chaos that he's actually suffering, he actually invokes the Leviathan.

He invokes the great sea beast, the sea dragon. So in the midst of him suffering, this death and suffering, in his family and things like this, it's very notable, I think, that he invokes the great sea beast. And at the end of Job, probably more famously, god himself decides, to invoke the Leviathan. Right? And so when god is, you know, somewhat chastising Job, he reminds Job, to think of the Leviathan and how powerful it is, etcetera.

But to god, you know, the Leviathan is a a plaything, like a like a maiden tying a bird to a string. But to a man, right, the leviathan, the great beast of the sea, the sea dragon certainly means death. Right? It's only by God that the leviathan is then reduced, to this plaything.

Shannon: And so

Deacon Garlick: I think it's really fascinating, and I I would I would dovetail that into the imagery of water that what does the sea beast mean? Because the sea beast comes back in scripture. And so I think it's an incredibly important, to notice this. I think too, obviously, the one that people are probably thinking of is is, Jonah. Right?

I mean, how how do you have a thing on water, not talk about Jonah? And so, obviously, Jonah, in a lot of ways, you know, he's in the he runs away from God. He's supposed to go, preach to Nineveh. And so he's on the ship going away. What happens?

Right? The ship is, supposed to be safety for him. And because he's outside of God's will, right, he's cast out of the ship, and into the depths. And not only then is he is he into the water, into the chaos, but then he's, you know, swallowed by this great beast of the sea, right, this great fish. And I think too, it depends on how you read it.

But I I follow a lot of the early church fathers that hold that Jonah died, and that he died inside, the fish. And you kinda see that with his prayer where he talks about, Sheol. It depends on how literal you think he's being there. But, obviously, our lord himself will use Jonah, as a prefigurement, as an analog for his own death, and resurrection. But setting aside whether Jonah died or not, the imagery, the typology still holds.

Right? And so then he's finally cast out of the sea out of the sea beast after having his kind of, like, metanoia, his turning around, his repentance, and now he goes off to, fulfill, you know, his duty. And so I think Jonah, right, has these things in it. Yeah. So as far as the old testament, maybe I'll take a break there and stop.

But I think it's the old testament. That's, like, a decent sketch that we see water, being used in these, as a primary part of a lot of these examples. And I think one thing too to to take a step back and think is, sometimes we're just really habituated to the bible stories, and so we don't see how, like, weird they are. But water I think we really need to take a step back. And even though we all know Noah, we know Jonah, we know creation, we know these stories, we kinda have to force ourselves to look at them with fresh eyes and say, okay.

Why why does water play such a role here? Because I think the New Testament really caps this off, and answers a lot of these questions. But I think that's a good sketch of the Old Testament.

Shannon: Really is very, very fascinating. Through throughout a lot of these stories, of course, you know, people, they don't really like what God's telling them to do. Moses, Noah at first, Jonah, and then or what he's allowing to happen to them, such as Job, and they they try to do it their way. They think they're gonna get away. But, when God has a call on your life, you can't really get away.

Sean.

Sean : Yeah. I just wanted to I mean, I'm struck by listening to this. Like, you can't stop almost unseeing this pattern here. I I wanna share this, and, Shane, I'd be curious either of your thoughts, if you think this is about right or has some merit here. But, I mean, really this this notion of water being chaos.

Right? And I was thinking particularly of the creation story at first, right, of God interacts with the the primordial waters, the chaos of life. And wondering if this could perhaps be seen as a sort of intermingling of actuality, which is God, which is with potentiality, the the chaos that is water. And if it's something like the actuality of God voluntarily, intermingling with potentiality leads to a sort of creation or a sort of new life that is good, especially how you see this sort of pattern in the seven days creation story of, and God saw it, it was good. There was creation and it was good.

And I also like how you combine this, Deacon garlic, with, Exodus, right, that Moses has many, symbolic encounters with water, but so do the Egyptians. And the Egyptians, of course, meet death. And it seems to be that the Egyptians, again, they confront the water, but they try to do it, on their own strength, right, without God, without a reference to actuality itself. And I I it almost reminds me of the Converse if I jump around a bit to, like, the Sea Of Galilee where there's the storm, Christ is asleep, and all of the, disciples are afraid they're gonna go under. And and the first thing they do, they they look to Christ and they wake him up.

And, of course, Christ is you you have little faith, but because they do turn to Christ, Christ calms the storm of the waters. So it seems like if the waters in the Sea Of Galilee too again represent this this chaos of life or this potentiality that is it that you're supposed to voluntarily meet this potentiality by turning to Christ or turning to God, turning to the source of all goodness? And if you're oriented properly that you have this right relationship with Christ or God, and then you confront the chaos of life, this is good in the sense that now your actuality is meeting with potentiality and a new creation comes out of this that is good. That almost if you on the personal level, if you look at the chaos in your own life right in front of you, whatever your trials, tribulations, or sufferings may be, that you look at it and you voluntarily confront these sufferings with a sort of reference to God or a reference to the law or a reference to a rich prayer life, and and you use this as your your means for voluntarily confronting the the chaos of life that this leads to a sort of maybe death of self, but also a sort of new you comes out from the other side of conquering your trials and tribulations.

The idea that you're suffering, when offered up to God becomes a sort of sanctification that makes you become it emerges a new person who is the person you should become all along? Like, is this is this a pattern that I'm seeing here? I'm I'm curious of your guys' thoughts on this.

Deacon Garlick: Yeah. A few thoughts. Yeah. One, I I yeah. We're gonna get into the New Testament, which I think is gonna maybe start to give a little bit of a lattice work, for us to understand these things.

You know, I'm struck by you know, know, we talk about the chaos and things like this. You know, it's interesting. If you read Hesiod's theogony, Hesiod has chaos as one of the four primordial gods. It's it's really what comes first. And so even Hesiod, you know, I think there's a a little bit of an understanding there of this chaos, that comes in.

Also, Homer, you know, Homer, you know, doesn't give us a a theogony, if you will. But Homer actually has this one really interesting line, in the Iliad, I believe, where he actually mentions, I think it's in the voice of Hera, that all the gods came from ocean, the Titan Ocean. And that type of mythology, for the Greeks that the gods all somehow came from the waters, is really kind of unique to Homer. And it's not the it's not the theogony that Hesiod gives us. But it's interesting that this interplay between chaos and water, as some as a genesis is also there in the Greeks and something that I think could be explored, more deeply.

I think to to your point, Sean, is that I think one of the questions is why. So god creates ex Nelio. Right? He creates out of nothing. And so I think what the questions is then why do we have this passage at the beginning?

Like, why why have this whole passage in which, the earth is formless and void and filled with water, and the spirit of God flutters above it? Why even do that? Right? And so because it's not necessary. It's not necessary for him to use some kind of preexistent matter to work upon.

And so you see that, and I think that has to we have to push into those narratives and not accept them at face value, but say, what is the purpose here? And I think that that only further solidifies that water plays a very interesting archetype throughout all of scripture because the reason that God does these things is because they're pedagogical. He's trying to show us something. He wants to teach us something. And so maybe that's a good segue into into looking at the New Testament because I think it it starts to answer some of the questions that you raised.

You know, I will point out that, if you've ever been to a Catholic baptism, you might be thinking to yourself that what we've talked about thus far could really just be a catechesis on holy baptism. And if you've been to a Catholic baptism, you might recall, that part of the the liturgy there, the ritual, I should say, is actually recounting all the times that water is mentioned, and as a source of salvation. Because I think then this is the this is the imagery. This is what we have to bring to the table to understand Christ's baptism is is that why does he pick baptism? Why why does he pick this, symbol, this sign of the body going under the water and coming out?

Well, it's because that whole symbol is informed by the typology of water throughout the entire Old Testament. It's brimming with this imagery of chaos and death. And so we have to notice in this moment that God decides to show himself going into the darkness and death and chaos himself and then coming back out. That's what our lord's baptism is showing us. It's this microcosm of this.

Right? It's a snapshot that god himself enters into this death and chaos, and it comes out. Now we know the sacrament of baptism, forgives all sin, including original sin. Right? We're washed clean.

We become a new creature. And, obviously, Saint Paul, when he talks about us being a new creature, he's tying, the waters, the primordial waters of creation to our baptism. So just like God pulled out creation from those primordial waters. Right? So order comes from that disorder.

So too, do we rise as a new creature, something new, something beautiful, something ordered out of the waters. So, really, the baptismal waters, right, are those primordial waters. They are, the chaos and death, and we're submerged, and we come out. Now our lord, why is he baptized? Right?

He doesn't need to be baptized. And he gives us an example, and that's good. But what does he do? And one way to do this is Saint Ambrose answers, right, is that our lord, did not go into the waters, to become holy, but rather to make the waters holy for us. That he, takes what has been this instrument of death and chaos, water, the symbol of, this darkness, and he turns it into the vehicle of salvation.

So baptism ends up becoming, really the encapsulation in a lot of ways of the entire collection of images from the old testament. But I think that this is not a catechesis on the sacrament of baptism. Because I think in a lot of ways, this is where things end, is people people kinda stop here and say, oh, okay. This is the zenith. Like, this is what all these images are pointing towards.

And while the sacrament of baptism obviously is important to support of salvation, etcetera, I don't think it's the whole lesson. And, Sean, you already alluded to, but I think we have to think about of how often water plays into our lord's own ministry. And this is really what I was talking about earlier that we have to push into things that are so hackneyed now that we don't even think about them. And so we see water acting all the time. Well, why why wasn't our lord going off and fighting forest fires?

Why wasn't he stopping the earthquakes from happening? Why wasn't he doing all these other things? Why is everything he is he doing related to water? Why does water play his predominant theme in our lord's own ministry? And that's where that typology that we see in baptism but throughout the whole testament has to keep informing us.

So for instance, just like look at our lord's first miracle, the wedding at Cana. What does he do? He takes water. He takes something that we've seen all of these images of, being chaos and death, and he turns it into what? Wine.

And, obviously, wine there plays this special significance because wine is the material, that will be elected, to become the blood of our lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. And so he takes again something that has been associated, with this chaos and death, and he changes it into something that actually brings, eternal life, right, as his first miracle. I think too, the calming of the storm. Again, so he's on a boat. He's in the water.

And what happens? The waters become chaotic. There's this storm, etcetera. And, yes, we we worship the god who sleeps. Right?

He's in the boat, and he's asleep. And they have to wake him up because he has absolute peace. Nothing nothing about the situation actually bothers him. It reminds me, you know, we're about to read Dante for Lent, and so I've been looking over it. It reminds me when Beatrice goes into hell to talk to Virgil, Virgil's like, aren't you afraid to be here?

And Beatrice is like, no. Not at all. Like, fear comes from something that could actually happen to me. Nothing can happen to me. Right?

I am among the blessed, and you all are the damned. Like, nothing can happen to me here. We see that same, just I I just I find it very fascinating. The same courage, if you will. It's not even courage really because there's nothing to be afraid about.

Just this absolute understanding of the reality of good and evil, in our lord Jesus Christ just sleeping on the boat. And so what do they do? They wake him up and, like, yes. Okay. So we've got some imagery here.

It's very clear. There's a storm. There's waves, etcetera. The boats go to crash. Think about Moses in the Nile River.

Think about Noah's ark. Like, think about these things. But what's he do? The scripture says something really interesting. Right?

It says his disciples, the disciples wake our lord, and Matthew records, he got up, rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. The narrative of Christ calling the sea, I think in a lot of ways recalls those primordial waters. What do I mean by this? Well, we have to understand that Christ, is the second person of the blessed trinity. He is the logos.

He is the eternal word. And so we know that creation, was a trinitarian act. Right? So the father, is speaking. Christ, the second person of the trinity, is the logos, the word, and the holy spirit is the breath.

And so creation is a trinitarian act. And so you have to keep in mind that when our lord is rebuking the storm, right, he's the same person who created the creation to begin with in the first place. And so it's that creative act. It's the creator speaking to the creation and why it doesn't bother him in the least bit. And there's something too that's very interesting there that we have to kinda latch onto, but I'm not sure we're given we're not I'm not sure we're given the tools to understand it completely, is that notice that our lord use uses exorcism language on the storm.

He doesn't just calm the storm. He rebukes it. And that's very fascinating language. And Matthew knows what he's doing because what ends up happening, he juxtaposes the calming of the storm with the healing of the demoniac of the legion. What happens in that story?

Right? So as you may recall, you know, Christ, you know, drives the demons out of two men, and into a herd of swine. And we should take careful observance, I think, of the fact, that when the demons are sent into the pigs. Right? So if you remember this narrative, they're like, oh, lord.

You know, don't send us into the abyss, etcetera. Please send us into those pigs, and our lord agrees. But the demons then drive the pigs where? Back into the sea, and they die amongst the waters. So Saint Matthew was showing us the sea, the water, I think is the realm of the demonic, that which is lifeless, void, and dark.

Yet he he couples this narrative, with the calming of the storm to show us that this chaotic realm is subject to the authority of our lord Jesus Christ. Here, I I think it's most important to recall that he did rebuke the storm. And so we see these two exorcist acts juxtaposed to one another, showing us that our lord has complete control over both nature and the supernatural, over the storm and over the demons, but they both, somewhat terminate in the imagery of water. Right? The calming of the waves and the pigs returning back into the sea, the demons returning, to that realm of chaos.

Obviously, I'm sure people are thinking here too of our lord walking on the water would be another one. Right? Showing his authority over that. But, again, you have to ask yourself, like, why is it always water? Why not something else?

And I think that we have to get in. There's this deep pedagogy of water throughout all of scripture. Now to tie this into the beginning. Right? So what was it when I think the holy spirit led me to look at this?

What was it that I was trying to find? Well, in a lot of ways, what I was trying to find is the relationship between holiness and chaos. Too often, we we believe that, holiness, because of its etymology to be set apart, means that we have to be physically set apart, that I actually have to go away from the world. I have to become a monk, etcetera, to become holy. And if I can't do that, then somehow I'm I'm robbed, of my holiness in in some capacity.

Right? And so there I was, you know, with this brief flash of of pity thinking about people that had more, ordered and conned lives than I did. And here I am, doing these handling chaos, but handling it for the church. So am I really in a situation in which my service to the church is an impediment to my own holiness? And I think what really finally captured my, captured my imagination in the study of water is the calling of the first disciples.

And so Matthew records, as Jesus walked by the Sea Of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter, and Andrew, his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. And he said to them, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And immediately, they left their nets and followed him. It's not by accident, that Christ called fishermen to be his first disciples. It's an intentional act that illuminates an entire pattern throughout all of salvation history.

It's a decision built upon the narratives of creation, Noah, Moses, Jonah, and everything else that we've talked about. Walking by the sea, he calls them to be fishers of men. If one is to be a fisher of men, where must one be? As a man draws a fish out of the sea from his boat, so too do the disciples of Christ draw souls out of chaos and into the church. Therefore, chaos, you know, I don't think is a reason to give up hope.

In a certain way, I actually think that we're called to chaos. I think we're actually called to be those fishers of men. That if I am going to pull souls out of the chaos, it would be odd if I was never around it. It. Like, who who is actually gonna pull these souls out?

Who is going to have to deal with the waves and the batterments and etcetera to try and save my And so I think that, you know, we have to really think to ourselves, why did Christ call fishermen? And does the call of the fishermen have, a pedagogical value to all of scripture? That Christ in calling these simple fishermen was actually trying to illuminate a deep, deep teaching throughout all of scripture to show us what it means to join him, what it means to join him in the boat, and to pull souls out of the chaos. Like, this is our ministry. This is what we're called to do.

Shannon: We're gonna continue our discussion. We may have time for questions a little bit later, so you could request the mic if you'd like to now. Sean, before we continue, first of all, I'd also invite everyone to repost the space if you haven't already done so. Before we continue, Sean, give us maybe a fifteen second promo about what you just started doing on Wednesday nights.

Sean : Oh, yeah. Most definitely. Every Wednesday night, starting yesterday, Shannon and I had made the decision to embark on a thirteen week, chapter by chapter or, I guess, book by book read through of, Saint Augustine's confessions. This is a masterpiece work. And I guess in many ways, it we're attempting to do what, Deacon Garlic has already been doing so massively for however many years you've been doing this now.

But we had almost the the same sort of idea of we just really want to dive into a rich text, in this case, a theological masterpiece like Augustine's, Confessions. And, like, let's let's try to really, over the course of weeks or months, like, try to really marinate on this text. Like, go just chapter by chapter and dig in paragraph by paragraph, line by line in many cases. And, yeah, we had our first discussion yesterday. It was very, very, enlightening, very thrilling, life affirming, I would say.

And we're doing about 12 more, spaces on this at least over the course of the next three months. So if you guys are interested in that in conversations like this, you can also catch me and Shannon, every Wednesday at six doing that. Of course, you're all welcome to join.

Shannon: We had a brief conversation last night after the space, and I I told Sean what what's sort of so so cool about this is how excited he is about great literature. Like, I I think I said something like, you know, you're like a kid at Christmas. And I talked to a friend of mine today, and I didn't know they were listening last night. And they they said something very similar. They said, that guy you were doing it with, you know, you could just feel his enthusiasm for great literature.

So, I thought that was a great a great compliment. But all this talk about water reminded me, you know, how we're surrounded by it. Right? The Earth is 75% water. The human body is majority water.

And, Deacon, when you were talking about that that passage from Matthew, the calming of the storm, it reads, then he got into the boat. The next thing they knew, they were in a severe storm and how in our own lives, how that happens. You know, we're we're having a nice life. Things are going great. Things are nice at work.

Things are nice at home. And then something happens. You know? Whatever the whatever the crisis is, a health crisis, somebody's in an accident and their life changes or they lose their job, just in the twinkling of an eye, human life is fragile and things could change. And the the story in Matthew goes that as the waves were crashing, he was sound asleep.

And so so that's how we feel sometimes. That's how I feel, like, where is God? And and they're they're begging him to to save us. And, sometimes there's silence, and we we wonder about that that waiting and that patience. Of course, he's always, always working through that.

Sean?

Sean : Yes. A couple points here. Comments and another question or two, but I I really do like that idea of we're we're called to be fishers of men too. Right? That perhaps we're called to to be amongst the chaos again, to to face the the waters of life, which Deacon Carl, like you said, like, that can actually, in some cases, that can be symbolized as the demonic and maybe we're not called to literally face the demonic.

But I I think if you're following the call to God and proverbially wrestling with God, you're going to be, you know, encountering the storms of life to say the least. I mean, I remember someone who came back to the faith, but what the way that I was called back into the faith was the the funniest of things without going too far into this anecdote. I was working in Boston in, in in tech, and I had this weird, weird calling. I'm like, at this point, I'm interested in the Bible, and I read it intellectually, but I don't have a a sense of faith or the Holy Spirit and what have you. I had this weird calling, like, quit your job and move to Atlanta.

You know, a thousand miles south from where I was staying, no friends or family, and no plan. And I I I I started just having, like, this this call over and over and over again, and it went for nine months and it kept, like, maybe it was something like Jonah. Right? In the sense of, like, it's calling and calling and I'm like, this is stupid. No.

This is stupid. I don't wanna do it. Like, I why would I do that? And, eventually, I felt like I woke up once at four in the morning, like, feeling like I was in the belly of the beast. And I'm like, fine.

Like, if I I I keep having these hot flashes and waking up, like, I'll go to Atlanta. And, like, as soon as I said it out loud, like, there was a peace. But my point is when I actually did end up making that journey, I've been down here for six years now though, in many ways that it felt like a descent into, into a stormy stormy sea. I'm like, I don't know what what the hell I'm doing down here. I don't have a job.

I was literally trying to figure things out by myself. It was so counterintuitive to a modern world that says, you know, have a normal job, have comfort, be rational first. Like, don't invite unnecessary suffering into your life. And yet when I found my my calling and my my faith with God, that felt like it was a call to really be out at the stormy sea over and over and over again. And again, it makes me wonder because you had brought up a few comments on Job too and, Leviathan.

Right? Like, one of the great beasts of the sea. It's it seems like it can be a temptation to look at the the the stormy, murky seas of water in life or the great beasts and think like this is horrible or to look at me suffering in Atlanta and say, that's horrible. Why are you doing that to yourself, man? Come home.

But if I remember right in Job, what God is getting at when he's talking to Job and he says, you know, look at the look at my creation. Look at everything I made. It seems like the implication here is even the this the sort of stormy beasts that he see, the chaos of life that we can't understand, it seems that he says, even these things are good because there's a purpose it serves even if that's beyond your comprehension. And if you trust in that and trust in me and still venture out into these stormy, I guess, storms of life, good things will happen to you, but look to me first. I'm curious.

Does that cohere? What what would your thoughts be on that?

Deacon Garlick: Yeah. No. I think I think there's a lot of, you know, wisdom in that. I think there's a a few things too. I think the that kinda put, they kinda just put a bow on it, right, as we kind of because what we're doing here, right, even, Sean, in your comments, we have a literal.

We've we've talked about literal stories. Right? Noah, Moses, etcetera. And we're pulling an allegory out of them. Right?

A typology of water. You know, and I think it should be stated that while I think this is a dominant of typology throughout all of scripture, it's not exhaustive. So it doesn't mean that water every time water is mentioned, it has to mean this. Right? It's a dominant typology, but it's not exhaustive.

But I think right now, you know, Sean, what you're doing is you're you're kinda pushing then into the moral. Right? How how does this apply to my life? How how can I actually do this? Which I think is good.

Right? Because that's the natural maturation as we look at scripture, as we see literal, allegorical, and then move into the moral. I think, you know, just to kind of put a bow on this, is really revelation. And I I wanna make two points on that. And one is is that the sea beast returns, and I think that's important.

And so John writes, and I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had 10 horns and seven heads, 10 crowns on its horns, and on each head, a blasphemous name. And, of course, we see that the whole world worships the sea beast. It actually says, who is like the sea beast? Who can wage war against it?

Now this is hilarious if you actually understand the typology of scripture because We've already seen in Job, right, our, God tell us that the Leviathan to him is like a plaything, like a maiden with a string tied around, a bird. And so it's interesting that in the revelation, we again see, this massive sea beast come up that's that's very heinous and horrendous in its appearance. And people, you know, are worshiping it. And by the way, they're who is like the sea beast, right, is is a perversion of Michael's who is like God. But we've already seen that our lord is going to triumph.

And so, obviously, the humiliation of the sea beast is that it's defeated, by a lamb that stands slain. And so we see that I think it's important to know that the sea beast comes back, and there's the ultimate victory of Christ over that beast. Then the final point I would make too that I that I think then really shows that there's this typology of water kind of bookends all of scripture is that this is how John then ends towards the very end of Revelation. He says, and then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

There's no sea in the new earth. Right? This imagery of chaos, death, etcetera that we see, the new heaven has none of this. Right? The new Earth does not have this.

And so you can really take, right, I think, all of scripture and bookend it and say, okay. Here's the primordial waters at the beginning of of the first Earth, and then here's the second Earth that has, you know, no water, no sea, particularly. Right? Because we do see that there's there's a river and these kind of things, but there's no sea. And we have to ask, like, what does John mean by this?

I think the answer to that is that there's no chaos. Right? Everything is ordered and structured. There is no death. You know, there is no darkness.

And so I do think that I think that this merits, you know, Sean, like you were pushing into, I think this starts to merit a certain moral and spiritual reflection. It starts to merit, like, you know, what what is the arc that I'm holding on to in life? What is, what's the chaos and death that's around me? Am I being battered by the waves? Do I need to do something right to to get myself out of the chaos, to walk on the water, to get in the boat?

Or maybe, you know, maybe your life you're you're disciplined and you have an ordered life. And so, really, the question is, how are you helping your neighbor escape the chaos? Right? Are you reaching out of the boat and pulling your neighbor, into their salvation? Right?

That gets more difficult because for a lot of us, and my myself included, it's a lot easier at times, to remain holy, and to remain in a a good walk with my lord Jesus Christ if I just stay away from things that are complicated or drama, or whatever. But then that's not what our lord did. Right? Our lord stepped into dangerous situations. He stepped into complicated situations.

He stepped in to talk to people that were broken and hurting. And there's exposure there. Right? There's exposure to that chaos. Right?

It's like, Peter trying to walk on the water. There is an exposure there, but is this worth it? Is this ask like, if I'm going to pull men and women out of the chaos, I'm going to be a fisher of men. I have to be where the chaos is. I have to pull them out.

I think for me, going back back to the beginning, I think for me, that's where this then became, a certain mantra in my own spiritual life was that the chaos around me and my my serving, the church in this capacity, is not an invitation to self pity or or some kind of lesser calling or whatever it is, but rather, I think is actually should be fairly normative for how we see our walk with Christ, that we really should be in the chaos, and we really should be, fishers of men. So, yeah, I I appreciate the I appreciate the opportunity, to kinda share this with you because it's to me, it's not simply a sterile academic exercise, but I think there's a lot of spiritual thickness here, that can really better our own walk with Christ. Yeah. So thank you.

Shannon: Of course, deacons, can perform the rite of baptism. I wanted to sorta ask you about that. Water, of course, is used in baptism, and there's a there's a minor exorcism. Is there not before before the baptism where you ask the people, do you renounce Satan, the parents, and the godparents? And then isn't there a minor exorcism?

Is it considered a minor exorcism?

Deacon Garlick: Yeah. It's more evident in the old rite. The old rite, if I going by memory, the old rite has, two, you know, exorcisms, as part of it, and the water that we use there is particularly holy water, an actual blessing of it in which, even if a deacon going by memory, even if a deacon had the permissions, under the old right to do a baptism, the priest still had to come in and do the exorcism, on that particular holy water to be able to be used there. So, yeah, I think there's a you see that type of imagery that happens in the baptism, even as a prep for the baptism of the child is you see that really prefigured in Christ himself. Right?

So something holy is going down into this imagery of death and coming out, but then the vehicle, of death becomes the vehicle of salvation. It becomes something holy for us to degree then that I want to immerse myself. I want to jump into what would be my death and chaos because it's actually there in which my life resides. And so this is where I think so many things in Christianity, you know, turn the world on its head because then we embrace our cross. We want that death.

We want to die to self. And it makes no sense if the vehicle of death has not been redeemed into, a portal of salvation. And so if we if the world doesn't have that, then, obviously, it's foolishness to do, what we're doing. But because Christ has turned this on its head and that he was baptized, you know, for us to make those waters holy, then baptism and just a larger, you know, of embracing of death and suffering, and chaos to a certain degree and ultimately the cross, is normative then in the Christian life.

Shannon: I'm also reminded that one of my favorite things in the church, throughout the church liturgical year is at Easter when we have our renewal of our baptismal vows. And, of course, part of that is the priest goes out into the congregation and sprinkles water over the, over the congregation. Also, you hear these stories of exorcisms and how demons react extremely negatively to holy water from from the church. I always found that very, very fascinating. Well, we're coming to the go ahead.

Go ahead, Deacon.

Deacon Garlick: I was gonna say to your point there at the Easter Vigil, you know, there there's an imagery of Christ baptism, because if you remember at the Easter vigil, some of it's hard to see depending on where you're you're seated. But before we baptize, the catechumens in the baptismal font, the Easter candle is dipped three times and then held in the water. And so there's an imagery too there that this this baptismal water, right, which really is those primordial waters of creation, are then redeemed through the immersion of our lord Jesus Christ. And so there's this entering of the candle into the waters, three times, which really makes it spiritually there's a spiritual fecundity, that comes from that. So, really, one once you see this in scripture, the church and her wisdom, has really woven this in, particularly, in the rite of baptism and particularly at the Easter vigil.

Shannon: I've been blessed the last seven or eight years to serve as the master ceremonies of the Easter Vigil, so I've been right there at the baptismal font, sometimes holding the candle for the priest before he takes it and lifts it. And isn't the symbolism of of dipping of of taking this massive, sometimes five feet tall candle, and placing it into the into the, the father, isn't that symbolic of the procreative act and the church is actually birthing new children at that moment when when the baptisms are done?

Deacon Garlick: Sorry. I'm just I'm just laughing because I was like, should I mention that? Nah. No one's gonna bring I'm not gonna mention that. No one's gonna bring that up.

Yeah. So no. There is, it's odd to us. So if that kind of Eros and spirituality seems off putting to you, you should probably come to our space next week on a a defensive erotic love and Christianity. But yeah.

No. There the church's own ritual there talks about it, indirectly. That's kind of what I was alluding to. There's a fecundity there. Right?

So Christ actually they'll talk about the baptismal font as a womb. And so Christ enters that womb, and it's only Christ that can change that womb from being barren, to being able to be spiritually alive, to have a spiritual new birth. Right? So it creates that womb, to use another because, obviously, one thing to think about we talk a lot about water. The church's typology has layers.

So just because one thing stands for another in a certain category doesn't mean it can't serve as another analog in another. So, yeah, if you move from, like, the water analogy, to kind of this, look at a spiritual arrows, then, yes, it's it's a womb. Christ opens that womb, and then it's from that womb because we're about to baptize these people, that people then emerge as new creatures. Right? And then so you see a lot of tethering between that type of, erotic act, if you will, in the best sense of the word, with the original, imagery of the primordial waters of the new creation.

Shannon: I remember one year at the at the rehearsal for the Easter vigil, which sometimes the rehearsal is two hours long, is, you know, the priest laughing and saying people would be scandalized if they if they really knew the symbolism here. I wanted to welcome, deacon Richard to the panel. He's a deacon in the Archdiocese of Toronto, and, I know you came in late. Deacon Richard, you had a space earlier, but I didn't know if you had any comments on just catching the the last few moments of what we've been discussing.

Deacon Richard: Yeah. I was, I was, kind of smiling too around that that, that piece. But the Easter vigil is, an incredible I I love the Easter vigil and, and partly because I've also I lead the RCIA at my parish, and so it's, it's great. The symbolism of entering the church in darkness and then and and then light and then the exorcism of the of the water. I was gonna ask Deacon Garlic.

Does does, we I don't think we use I think we use the old right, but I guess it's up to it's up to the church, the particular pastor what right they wanna use.

Deacon Garlick: Well, it's a somewhat complicated conversation now after some of pope Francis's reforms. But for the most part, at your typical docus and parish, after the last round of docus and or parochial reforms by pope Francis, it's all the new right. The old right is is pretty heavily restricted now.

Deacon Richard: Oh, I see. Okay.

Shannon: I just find it wonderful in church architecture for those churches when you first come in. I get my architectural terms right, so the narthex, when the when the baptismal font is sort of at the I guess it's the back of the church, but it's like the first thing you see. It's very symbolic of you have to pass through the waters of baptism to enter as a member of the Catholic church. And so I always love it when the when the font is is at the sort of towards the doors when you come in as opposed to sometimes it's up upfront over over to the side of that. Where how about in your cathedral, deacon?

Where where is it?

Deacon Garlick: Ours is ours is up front. That's where it is now, mainly where, you know, people can see. Obviously, like, the church in her wisdom places holy water fonts, towards the front. Right? So there's that imagery of my capacity to enter into the church, is, because of baptism, because of the portal of salvation.

And so we mark ourselves with the sign of the cross while using holy water, and that's supposed to be, the imagery, right, that's invoked. And so water really is, that passage by which we actually have to go through, you know, to find our salvation. You know, the other thing too there, just to kind of because, obviously, this this rabbit hole can just keep going, is this also is the reason that most baptismal fonts have eight sides. So if you ever notice most baptismal fonts are octagons, and that is because it's related to, the eighth day. Right?

So we have the seven days of creation, but the new heaven and new earth, is the eighth day, the new creation. And so just like we saw with our readings from Revelation tonight where there's no sea, etcetera, those types of things, most baptismal fonts are actually octagons and also are surrounded by imagery of eight. So at at my old parish, not the cathedral, but a a different one that was very Art Deco, it's baptismal font was an octagon, but then also had several eight pointed stars, around that, which was different than the five pointed nautical star, that talks about, like, the Magi and our lord. So, yeah, eight, if you're kind of looking at this imagery and you're kinda starting looking around and see where is it in my church, also look for eight, because that's the numerology there that's actually really important.

Shannon: Another place, of course, the church uses water is at the funeral rite. You know, they the church sprinkles, sprinkles the coffin, at the, the back of the church, before the body goes off to to be buried. And even at the gravesite, the priest or the deacon or whoever's doing the gravesite service, don't they, he can sprinkle it into the into the ground where the person's going down into the depths?

Deacon Garlick: We do. Yeah. I just, we had a couple, not too long ago, some friends of ours, who lost their unborn child at thirteen weeks, and she had to have surgery. And so there were remains. And so, a good friend of mine, a priest, celebrated the funeral, and I was asked to do the homily.

And that's a you wanna talk about stepping into chaos. You wanna talk about stepping into hurt and pain and trying to provide people, some type of stability. You know, I think it was a it was a beautiful liturgy. The liturgy is designed, to help heal those wounds. But, yeah, there's there's the imagery then particularly when we go to the grave site.

There's a small ritual that happens there, and, yes, one of them is that then the grave itself, at this one, we actually the grave was covered, and father actually had us pull, the cover away so he could very particularly bless, the depths of the grave. And so, really, you know, for the church's wisdom, just like we see in scripture, this accompanies you from your birth to your death. This is it. Right? This is this is what it means to live.

This is what it means to embrace that chaos, to be reborn, until, hopefully, god willing, we can finally rest, with him for all eternity.

Shannon: We go to the church for all of the great events in our life. Right? When we're baptized and we're confirmed, for marriage, and then again for the final time, at the at the funeral. Right? So I wanna thank Rebecca.

When we were talking about calming the storm, she posted that great Rembrandt painting of the boat on the on the sea with the waves. If you look down in the comments, you will see you will see that. We're we're coming to the end, and, I I just wanna divert a little bit because it's a teaching moment. We have two deacons here, but it's become more and more common in the church for people to be cremated, and then they have the ashes. Do either one of you wanna just talk very briefly about why it's important that those ashes still be buried and not be sitting on the mantle?

Deacon Garlick: Sure. I can take a first crack at it. So, yeah, the church, in her wisdom does allow cremation now. Obviously, there was a lot of prohibitions in the past, particularly when cremation was seen as an act, that denied the bodily resurrection, that the body was not part of who we really were, that we weren't composite creatures. Right?

At certain times, it it took on a very, pagan aspect, to it. And so, obviously, the church prohibited it for a long period of time. Now, obviously, most Catholic cemeteries allow, cremation. Their bishops allow cremation, because it's not done with any kind of, any kind of, you know, kind of onus or hatred towards the body or discounting it and its value, but rather, simply, usually for most time, it's economical. I think that the cremation, though, in a lot of ways, like, our bishop here in Tulsa, has told people that it's permitted, but not preferred.

I do think from someone who's been in a lot of funerals, the the urn, if you will, with the cremains is is never really treated with the same respect as as the as the, casket is as the coffin is. And in certain ways, it's because it's almost impossible to because someone just carries it in and sets it down, and carries it out. It's put in the trunk of the car on the way to the funeral. Like, just by its very nature, there's certain things about it that tend to not lend to a certain level of, solemnity. Yeah.

And then and then there's horror our Catholic charities, here in Tulsa is phenomenal. But one of their ministries they just stumbled into, because we didn't know it was a thing, is how many people would die, and then they get their house cleaned out or whatever, and we find, cremains on their mantle. And, actually, we worked with if memory serves, we worked with our Catholic charities and with the city of Tulsa, who we found out had lots of remains from the poor and homeless who had died. And our local Catholic cemetery buried 500 souls, that had been, cremated but then never buried. And so, yeah, I I it's permitted, but I think it comes with some difficulties.

Obviously, there's other difficulties of, like, what do all your remains actually make it into the urn, and and things like this. So that's kind of a a little snapshot where we are. My preference, you know, I think my recommendation for people would be to, be buried bodily. There's there's ways to do that, cheaper than what's typically done. But just from someone who's been at a lot of funerals I mean, I've been at funerals in which they forget to bring the cremates, in which, basically, you know, you have someone of each other in a family.

None of the children are practicing anymore. Everyone shows up, and they didn't even realize they were supposed to bring them. It just does not have the same weight and resonance as an actual body. And I think that, the liturgies at a funeral are very important, for both your soul and for those around you. And so I think having an actual cost I can talk, a casket, is important for numerous spiritual reasons.

Shannon: I've got a number of family members in real estate, and they would tell me stories of, you know, you have an an an elderly lady, for example, and she's in her seventies. Maybe she doesn't have children, but she has, you know, nieces or something. And she dies and and leaves the house to them. They don't live in the same city. They come to town.

All they wanna do is is sell the house and get the money. And so they they might not even come to town. They might just have the real estate agent put her on the market. And, and, you know, maybe the woman's husband is is on the mantle in an urn, and and it literally just gets thrown in the trash. So it's very, very important.

Deacon Richard, did you wanna add anything to that?

Deacon Richard: No. That was great. I I haven't, I haven't, presided over any of that many funerals, but they've all been caskets. But I I do see, the challenges with that, and our archdiocese as well allows cremation. And I think it just speaks to the, you know, the I think the church was from my from my understanding and deacon Garland could probably correct me, but, you know, there was a certain dignity that comes with, bodily form as opposed to, cremation and but the church has, you know, sort of come along.

But I do I I have been to a, a nondenominational visitation, and it troubled me when the family said, you know, we're taking the ashes and we're going to go out in the middle of the ocean and and spread them. And I thought, oh, you know, I I my heart kinda broke, with that. So yeah. So that's my only comment there.

Shannon: Yeah. Apologies for for diverting us. I just I I know a lot of people don't know these things, and so it was a great chance to sort of just pass on some wisdom from from the clergy. Well, deacon Garlic, thank you for your time. I know you're very busy and you have a family, and you have the great books podcast.

If you're not following Deacon Garlic on his on this account, Ascend the Great Books podcast, please do. And, as you said, you're gonna be reading Dante's Inferno throughout Lent. We're we're talking we've been talking, like, with Sean about great literature, and and and you promote this all the time, you know, posting pictures of of great books, the the spines of the the the covers of the book. It's very intriguing for people who haven't read it. But if somebody's I asked Sean this last night in our space.

We somehow, Plato came up, and I said, if no if someone's never read Plato, where do they start? But let me just ask you broader. When you think about the great books of history, if someone's never dug into it, it's it seems intimidating for somebody who might not consider themselves intellectual. What's the best place to start?

Deacon Garlick: Yeah. That's a great question. In certain ways, I think it's predicated on the particular person. You know, if you can, if you're if you're committed into a long read or you have friends that can do it do it with you, I think reading the Iliad first is best. It's the first great book, if you will, save, sacred scripture.

It's the great book that then all the other great books are gonna have reference to, in some way, shape, or form. But if you look at the Iliad and they're like, man, this is really daunting. It's really big. Like, I just kinda wanna dip my toe in and just kinda see what this is about. Then, yeah, the dialogues of Plato or maybe the Greek plays are a good place to start, because they're shorter reads, but far more, intriguing and dense.

And so if you're gonna start with Plato, I would heavily start with first Alcibiades. First Alcibiades is a dialogue that needs to get more attention today, but, historically, it was where all students of Plato started. If you were gonna read, Plato, that's where you started, the first Alcibiades. It's with a very haughty, prideful, young Alcibiades, who thinks he knows everything and is gonna go talk to the Athenian symbol simply about justice. And by the end of it, Socrates has, you know, turned him inside out, and he doesn't know what justice is, and he doesn't know what he's supposed to be doing.

But that beautiful deconstruction, of what he thinks he knows allows him then to finally start to clamp down on things that are real. And the whole premise of, the dialogue in a certain way is to know thyself, which is really the beginning of wisdom. Right? To know thyself. So I think first Alcibiades is a is a great place to start.

That's a dialogue, obviously, between Socrates and and Alcibiades. If you want something a little bit more narrative based, excuse me, then I think, I think when my small group met for the first time, because I did not wanna start them on Homer, The Iliad because I thought it would choke them out. We read a few short things, and we read some of Plato's dialogues. And the other thing we read was Antigone, by Sophocles. So a Greek play, which tells the story of, a young woman, Antigone, who stands up to the king, her uncle Creon, actually, oddly, about burying her brother, kind of thematic to some of our subjects, tonight.

And so it's a wonderful, and that even that, summary is very flat because it really gets into a very cosmic conversation about piety and how the polis and the gods and family align and what justice is and etcetera. But it's short. It's probably, I don't know, probably 1,500 to 2,000 lines. So that's a a short place to go. So if you're interested in it but if you wanna read the Iliad, you know, obviously, we have over 24 podcast episodes because we have an episode on each book, that we can kind of accompany you and be your small group, if you want to.

We have a few intro episodes, intro to the great books that would probably be helpful, as well. And then, right now, we're actually reading the Greek plays, and then we're gonna take a step. And, if you never read never read anything, feel free to still read Dante's Inferno with us for Lent. I think it's a good, introduction in a lot of ways. And then we'll go back to the replays, and then we start Plato, later this summer.

So, yeah, many, many good things ahead.

Shannon: I saw Sean giving applause and hearts. Sean, I'll come to you for comment in a second. But we're talking about books from antiquity, you know, a couple thousand years ago. What about books you'd recommend from, you know, just the last few hundred years or or would you recommend?

Deacon Garlick: So a question. Trying to think the last time I read a book, that was written in the last couple hundred years. So I obviously, like, if you're gonna read something, today, I think there are, some really excellent masters. I would look at pope Benedict sixteenth. I would look at father James Shaw, who I think is phenomenal and and probably doesn't get enough attention today as as he probably deserves.

I would probably also look at Peter Kreeft. I think in a lot of ways, he's a wonderful introduction to a philosophical life, kinda like what Scott Hahn is to theology. I think Peter Kreeft is to philosophy. He just makes it palatable, and really kind of an introductory level. If you're interested, I think, though, in the great books and you're interested particularly, you know, on the podcast, we talk about that Greek reason coupled together with Hebrew faith under Roman order prepared the world for Jesus Christ.

The great books and in my this is obviously a thick Catholic understanding, but the great books in certain ways are not accidental. We actually read Homer to have a better understanding of Jesus Christ. That Hellenized culture flowed into the Hebrew culture, and then both, flowed into Rome, and that's when our lord, obviously decided to become incarnate. And so there's something about that time period, that is not repeatable. And so the great books really, in a lot of ways, I think, are coming to understand our Lord better.

And so I think if you if you really want kind of a snapshot of this, of the Greek influence on the Christian spirit, really a a Greek imprint that is really not removable, Pope Benedict XVI, gave an address once called the Regensburg address, which is very short. It didn't get enough attention for what it actually was because he critiques Islam in it, and, basically, the whole world became upset about that. But the actual thesis of the article is how the West has become de hellenized. It has become less Greek. And as Christianity becomes less Greek, it actually becomes less of itself because there's no separation between the two.

So if you're looking at, like, if you kinda like more academic writings, and you want kind of a short but very excellent snapshot kind of architectonic view of how Greek reason and Hebrew faith come together. Pope Benedict sixteenth Regensburg address, which is available online, is very, very good. And then father James Schall wrote a whole book on it.

Shannon: Might be an interesting space. I think that was in 02/2006, maybe within a year or so of Pope Benedict's, election. What about you know, the average Catholic doesn't sit around reading people in cyclicals, but are those just for the theologians, or what do you what would you recommend? You know, are there any encyclicals in the last hundred years that stand out in your mind that might be interesting to people?

Deacon Garlick: Yeah. That's a good question. Deus Caritas Est, by Pope Benedict sixteenth, god is love. That's the one that we're gonna talk about next week in a defense of eros, a defense of erotic love. I think that one, is very, very good.

Pope Benedict sixteenth, is deep, but also tends to be very, very clear. And so I think he's much more accessible than you might think he is, at first glance. You know, I actually would probably give a defense of of a lot of pope Francis's writings on the environment. Obviously, when he kinda dips into policy and practicalities, I think when it gets very granular, I think there's a lot of problems and people, kick back a lot. But his understanding of nature there is actually very anti modern, that we're supposed to be the stewards of it, that it has a theological purpose.

So there's a lot of things there that's not Cartesian. And so I think pope Francis' writings on the environment have gotten caught up in a lot of politics, but there's actually a lot of wisdom there, that I think is very good. And he's actually building heavily off of pope Benedict sixteenth who before pope Francis was actually called the green pope, because of his, writings on nature. Another one too is pope John Paul the second's Fides et Ratio. So faith and reason.

That was the one that basically put the splinter in the back of my mind that I could not get out that eventually, led me to convert to Catholicism. And really just the opening line that faith and reason are the two wings upon which the human spirit arises to God. That was the first time that anyone had told me that faith and reason could actually be in harmony with one another. And so I think that one's very good. You know, all the popes have their own styles, so you have to kinda figure out who, is more, palatable to you.

But those are a few that I think would be a good place to start. And, no, I think the papal writings, you know, the writing to the church overall, at the beginning of each encyclical, they actually tell you who they're addressing it to and who their primary audience is, a lot of ways dictates then, the tone and and content of the letter.

Shannon: Yeah. And dus I can't sign my I'm not gonna say the Latin. At the very beginning, it says to the bishops, priests, deacons, men and women religious, and all the lay faithful on Christian love. Let's just go around the horn really quick. If for any final comments, we'll start with Sean.

Sean : I mean, I don't think I'd have much more that I would like to add at this point. I would just like to say, I mean, Shannon, you said yesterday how I I sounded like a kid on Christmas, getting to talk about Augustine, but it was really the reverse and the equivalent today. Just, truly, I loved every listening to and just taking everything in between you, Deacon Garlic, Catholic Deacon as well. All three of you, I'm just like I was I have my little notebook here, and, I usually do this when it's a really good space. I just start fervently, fervently writing.

So my my wrist is, aching quite a bit, but, I've Athenian knows that. I see he's in the audience. It's it's kind of like an Athenian style space where I'm like, I just I need to take it all in. So, really, this is just more I'd like to just be graciously say thank you, everyone for speaking for your time because this has been a wonderful way to spend a Thursday evening.

Shannon: And we will turn this space into a podcast. So there'll be opportunities to to hear it again. Deacon Richard, I know you came in late, so you have a little so it's a narrower perspective, but any final comments?

Deacon Richard: Yeah. No. I really appreciate it. And, Deacon Garlic, I've been followed for a while, and, I remember him because he has this beautiful painting. I think it's called the Ascend.

I remember, asking you about it. This was years ago, and it's, and that's how I came to know. And I I only caught the tail end here, but, definitely, we'll be listening to, the whole recording. So appreciate the the time and the the nourishment growing in wisdom. I I learned a a a a few things today just by listening to the conversation.

Shannon: Me as well. That's why I like to have guests that are, like, a hundred times smarter than me. Maybe a little some of it will rub off. We're talking about popes and beautiful writings. Pope Francis has written beautifully about the poor.

He established something called World Day for the Poor, which is in November of every year, and I think this been six or seven years. But those writings, he releases a message every they're very short than in terms of a papal writing, very, very short, but those are all worth reading. Very, very beautiful as we're called to love and serve the poor. Deacon Garlic, I'll get your final comments. But before I do, is is this essay or a homily you had, is it still available anywhere online or not?

Deacon Garlick: That is a great question. We are probably going to republish it. It's offline now. It was part of an institute, that ended up closing. So I'm actually trying to find a new home for it.

So I'll probably be opening up some type of article section on the greatbookspodcast.com. So probably look for updates there.

Shannon: Wonderful. And any final comments from you to wrap all this up?

Deacon Garlick: Well, first, my gratitude. You know, so thank you for the invite. Thank you for everyone for your comments. Iron sharpens iron. So I always appreciate it.

It's a a beautiful way to spend an evening. And, yeah, just invite everyone to kinda think about that typology of water. Again, it's not this is not a sterile academic exercise, but rather, I think it really is an invitation to to beauty our own souls, in pursuit of God beauty itself. And he's given us these lessons, and we're just gonna have to pay attention to them and then apply them to our own lives. And so, obviously, I'm I'm also a student.

I'm also a disciple. I'm trying to do this as well, but I appreciate the opportunity, to try and share this insight with everyone else.