The Permanent Diaconate

Shannon: Welcome to episode 21 of the Catholic frequency podcast. In this podcast, my friend Jan and I cohost a conversation with two permanent deacons, deacon Richard from the Archdiocese of Toronto and deacon Jim from the Diocese of Allentown in Pennsylvania. I started this conversation off by asking deacon Richard a very simple question. What is the permanent diaconate?

Deacon Richard: Well, the the short answer is, through, through Vatican 2, the diaconate was sort of renewed and and, and brought forward as, it's a sacrament of holy orders. And, we are heralds of the gospel. And, we are also given, sacramental orders, authority to, perform, the sacrament of baptism, weddings, as well as, funerals. But primarily, we are heralds of the gospel liturgy of the world, deacon of the word, or deacon of the altar assisting, the priest or the bishop.

Shannon: So you've you've been a deacon, what, three or four years, something like that?

Deacon Richard: Coming up on three years. Yeah.

Shannon: Tell us about the moment you first got this idea. Like, what inspired you to pursue this?

Deacon Richard: You know, I would, looking back is always 2020, but, I credit my grandmother, as a young boy. She yeah. I was a very naughty boy. Let's just put it that way. I always got myself into mischief as a young boy.

And, but my mother my grandmother would always, make me pray the rosary with her, and sometimes she would pray three or four rosaries a day. And she had this beautiful devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. And I remember walking through snowstorms, with her, probably the equivalent of maybe two, two and a half miles, to go to First Friday Mass. So I never missed a First Friday Mass with my grandmother. So looking back, I think my grandmother played a a huge influence.

But where it became, I guess, more, I think the seed started is my aunt, on my, wife's side. She's a she's a Carmelite, and she introduced me to, Pray, Hope, and Don't Worry by Padre Pio. And it was the first book I ever read on a saint. And from there, something changed. I was just, thirsting for more, and I found myself attending mass beyond Sundays.

I was going to mass three, four times, a week. And then, I think it was I would say in 2014, I attended a life in the spirit during lent at my parish. I had been asked to attend it many, many times, but I declined. And, from there, I I walked in I walked out of the life in the spirit, a different man, thirsting. And, I that's that's when it started.

I I'll I'll pause there because I could probably go on for another half an hour on that.

Shannon: So how do you become a deacon? Is there, like, a a deacon school at the diocese? Like, what's involved in in this whole process? Once you have this magic, this inspiration, this epiphany that it's something a a man wants to do, how do you do it?

Deacon Richard: You know, I it's it's a once I felt that that was the call, I, went on to the Archdiocese of Toronto's website, and, I looked, and they had happened to have an intake that year. And I remember, speaking to my wife. We have four children, but our two youngest ones were very young. I think, four and and six. And my wife and I both work, full time jobs.

So it was a it was a conversation that, that my wife and I had. She was very reluctant, very nervous. We prayed about it. We went to church. We prayed a novena to our blessed mother, and, and we came out of that with, okay, let's apply.

And if if if, if it is the lord's will, then he'll open the door. If it's not, he'll close the door. So I applied, submitted my application, and then you're screened your application is screened. You have to write an essay why are you applying, to the permanent diaconate. And, your your application is screened, and then you get a call.

You're interviewed over the phone, and then, then you're invited for an in person interview. And then and then you wait for, the acceptance or the decline from the seminary.

Jan: Amazing. Thank you so much for that, Deacon Richard. So we're going to move on to Deacon Jim. Just a few quick questions. First of all, how are you?

Deacon Jim: I'm doing well.

Jan: Good. I've I've seen your little circle on eggs in your posts and things. So it's so actually it's it's lovely when you're able to speak to somebody and get to know them and get to hear their voice, and they're not just a circle on eggs. So we're very blessed.

Deacon Jim: I agree, I agree.

Jan: It really is wonderful. So a similar question that, Shannon asked, Deacon Richard, what inspired you to become a permanent deacon?

Deacon Jim: Sure. So, just one slight little correction. Deacon Richard and I are not both from Toronto. I'm actually from the Diocese of Allentown in Pennsylvania. And, so I was blessed with, with parents who gifted me with the gift of faith at a young, young age.

God was always part of the equation, always part of our conversation. And actually, we are converts to Catholicism. We were raised in the Protestant faith, and when I was 12 years old, our family began to convert to Catholicism after, I was sent to Catholic school for a couple years with my little brother and, just kind of fell in love with the faith. And so it was always part of my life. I even pursued a career in serving the church, and I've served the church in different positions over the last thirty some years.

Started out as a parish youth minister, worked as a director of religious education, a parish administrator, and eventually got into, Catholic fundraising. And I I was a consultant. I was a diocesan development director. I currently work for a group called the Saint John Vieni Center, a 78 year old, mission to serve Catholic behavioral health and ministerial needs of clergy and men and women religious all over the country. But, the long and the short of it is I was a reluctant, vocation.

I, I had served the church for so long. I thought to myself, well, you know, I probably know better than God. At least I didn't say that out loud, but I probably thought I did, in thinking that I've always had the luxury of serving God in my career how I wanted to serve him. Right? And, it wasn't until my pastor called and invited me.

He said, Jim, I I have to write the names down of three people from our parish and, and three men who might be good deacons. And I really wanna write your name down, but I need your permission to do so. And I said, alright, Monsignor. How can you say no to Monsignor? He called me at home, and I said, I'll go to the meeting.

So I went to the meeting, was surprised to see one of my good friends there, and so we decided to start this journey together. And so for me, it was a process. It was a for us, it's a six year process in the Diocese of Allentown, and part of it was receiving a master's degree in pastoral studies. And so it was a long journey, and we threw COVID in the middle of all that, the shutdown. Fortunately, our classes were many many of them were held online, remote through Saint Bernard's School of Ministry and Theology.

So we were able to keep going through the process. And so we bonded on on a different kind of level, going through some different kinds of challenges. But I would say for me, it was a journey of prayer. It was a very close journey with my wife, who also wasn't quite sure that this is was the right thing, but was willing to enter into it, and and go on that journey with me and trust in God's providence, trust in his will for our life as a couple, and in his will for me as a man and as a husband. And knowing also that my role as a husband they tell you this at the beginning.

Your role as a husband and a father is first in your vocation. It really has to be. And and then then as you know, and then it's the diaconate. And and they very, really, very much respect that. And I think that's that's so critical.

But the long and the short of it is, it was a six year journey. It probably wasn't until about halfway through that I was really feeling as though, yeah, this is what I wanna do. This is this is the way I think God is leading me. And, and as I said, it was a lot of prayer, not only with my brother classmates, but also with my wife, most importantly.

Jan: Thank you. That's amazing. And and you were a convert as well, age 12, and then you've had that calling and you've spent, you know, six years studying as well. So you've mentioned a few things at St. John Vianney Center and a few things there, Deakin Gym.

And and also, I just want to say, I love the name Jim because it sounds very Scottish as well. So so I love that. So maybe

Deacon Richard: I think

Deacon Jim: I might have a little Scottish in me somewhere. Yeah.

Jan: I think you do. I think you do. So I'm wondering if you could explain to to us what are the sort of daily and weekly responsibilities you have as a deacon?

Deacon Jim: Yeah, absolutely. Well, the first and foremost is to pray. Deacons, in our diocese are required to pray the Liturgy of the Hours. I think they're required in every diocese. We're asked to do both morning prayer and evening prayer to begin and start, begin and end our day.

And then, we're assigned to a parish. And I was very blessed to be assigned to the cathedral in my diocese, which is, which is not my home parish. There was actually two of us who came out of our parish at Saint Anne's, and my buddy got to stay at our home parish, and I was transferred to the cathedral, which I'm not complaining about. It was a great honor. And so you really work out what they call a ministry agreement with your pastor, and so it can range from a variety of things.

I'll tell you my responsibilities are, I was asked to be in charge of the baptism program. So I educate parents and receive and and receiving their children into the church. I I get to baptize, little babies. And, oh, by the way, I probably should have mentioned this at the beginning. I've only been a deacon for all of four months.

Right? So you're not getting years and years of experience here, but, but this is but this is all very, very new to me in many ways. But, so I'm in charge of the baptism program, again, both educating parents and baptizing the children. In some cases, peacons can lead Bible studies. I also do, Wednesday nights.

I do I lead evening prayer and I conduct, benediction, for our parish. So our two parish priests offer confessions, and we do a whole afternoon where the, body of Christ is exposed, through the Blessed Sacrament. And then at the end of the evening at 07:00, I do benediction and lead evening prayer. So that's a wonderful blessing. And I have to say, as a new deacon, the first time I lifted up the monstrance and blessed the assembly, that was like, it was like I I did not feel worthy to be doing that.

I still don't none of us are worthy, but, I definitely, really, you have to pray hard about those moments. As a deacon, also, just as a side note, it's really important, I think, to frequent the sacraments of reconciliation and confession to really, to bring yourself closer to God through, clearing out our conscience, getting away get rid of the baggage, identifying any sins that you may be dealing with. Because for me, serving at the altar, and for all of us, we don't want anything to separate us from that moment, from God, from our duties. And so that's another responsibility. Deacons also fill in different roles.

My wife and I, tomorrow morning, will will take communion to the sick, and the homebound, and so we do that once a month. They we're given a list of different families each month, and, it's not something that she has to do, but it's something that we like to do as a couple. I'm a rather tall guy, big guy, and so, having a big guy in a black suit, come into your house, if you don't know him that well, my my wife is five two and a less imposing figure, but a very welcoming and warm presence, so we balance each other out. And it turns out it's really been something, a real blessing for both of us to do that as a couple. So, wherever possible, I like to share that ministry with her as a couple because it's inclusive and it, I've found that it brings us close closer together as a couple and in our faith.

And deacons, as Deacon Richard will tell you, we do a variety of things. This Lent, I'll be leading Stations of the Cross on Fridays. You assist, as Deacon Richard said, we assist at Mass through homilies, through reading the gospel, through holding the cup and being a minister at the altar, and in a variety of different ways. Some deacons are MCs at Mass, perhaps with the bishop, and, and really a variety of ways as much that we can do. What we cannot do is we cannot obviously say mass.

We can't, hear confessions. I could hear your confession, but I couldn't give you absolution, but we can't really hear confessions. I'm kidding. And, and and that's it. And we can't do, the, last rites, ministry of this.

We we can do ministry of the sick, but we can't do last rites, because at that moment, it's important that the person receiving last rites, and viaticum, is able to also have their confession heard. So that's why a priest is really important at that moment. So we, you know, I think it's when I met with my one of my buddies who was a deacon when I first went in, you know, he said it's important to know your place, and if you can be comfortable in your place as a deacon, there's a lot of wiggle room to have a lot of fun and a lot of enjoyment and a lot of spirit a lot of gratification in what you're able to do. So, I think that's really important to know your it's probably, I don't know if it's the right way to say it, but it's stay in your lane. Right?

It's we're not priests, we're deacons, but there's so much that we're we're called to do because this ministry is about service. And if you bring to it a heart of service, you're gonna bring the best part of yourself and the best part of your faith.

Jan: Thank you so much, for explaining that, Deacon. And it was lovely what the couple of things that you mentioned that you were able to do, like, baptizing little babies and the educational process. That must be so lovely to be able to do that.

Deacon Jim: I love it. It's a, it was again, it was an out of body experience almost like I get to do this. I get to bring this little baby into the church, and I have, three more this this next month. And, it's it's a real blessing. It's also a blessing to be with a young couple at the beginning of their journey as parents and to guide them.

I'm 55. We have three grown children, so we've we've, been there and done that with a lot of different aspects of raising kids. And so to be present to them and listen to them, and, it's a real blessing.

Jan: It really is. And I actually love watching baptisms at church because I'm always like, oh, I wonder if the wee one's going to cry or are they not gonna cry, you know? It's always lovely. And I love crying babies in the church. But something

Deacon Jim: that

Jan: you mentioned, there was a couple of things that you mentioned that you were able to to do something as a couple with your wife, which is great, take holy communion to the sick, but also you mentioned that being a husband and a father comes first, which is super important. So how do you you know, most deacons work in the secular world, unemployed by the church. So how do you manage to balance your duties as a deacon with family life?

Deacon Jim: Yep. Absolutely. Great question. And, it's it's something that requires, close communication with your wife. I am blessed with an amazing woman, who I've been married to for thirty years, who also has a ministry online, by the way, Kristen's Crosses.

But Kristen and I have, we've been in ministry together from the beginning, so maybe we are, unique in that way because way back when, at the beginning of our relationship, even when we were dating, I was a parish youth minister. So she got a sense of what it might be like if I did choose the diaconate, and I worked in parish life for full time for about ten years. So she had a little taste of what this might be like. But and that was, I think, part of it because she is also sacrificing, our time together because, believe it or not, we actually like hanging out together. And she likes hanging out with she likes me, which is a really good thing, especially after thirty years.

And so she has to be okay with that. And, and we both recognize that as holidays come up, whether it be Easter or Christmas, I'm gonna have to slip away for a little while sometimes to do masses and and assist the priest. But I'm so proud of her and so, in awe of her at the same time, by the way that she has accepted this and supported me. She never ceases to amaze me. But I I guess my if I were to offer one advice to anyone who's thinking about the diaconate, that close communication with your wife and and praying with your wife is so critical to, to having a solid foundation on which you can, she can feel comfortable with what you're doing and know that she's always number one, no matter what.

And and that what you're doing, you're doing in service to God. And really, the two are one. Right? We're doing it together in many ways. Even when she's not present with me on the altar, she's present there in my heart.

Shannon: Deacon Deacon Jim, I wanted to ask you. When you when you go to apply to become a deacon, isn't it re required by the diocese, like, your wife has to grant consent for this if you're a married man

Deacon Jim: Every step of the way. You got it. Every step of the way. In fact, there's different stages of the deacon's journey where he becomes a candidate and then, a lector and he becomes an acolyte and all of these all these pieces. And on each step of the way, she has to write a letter to the bishop, or as as I do, asking for the next step and that she's in full agreement.

So I think she wrote a total we both wrote a total of about five letters to the bishop, giving, you know, our consent. And they're very carefully worded letters because they have to fall into certain canonical wording. But, yes, so she has to give her consent. Absolutely.

Shannon: Change my mind.

Deacon Jim: That's right. That's why close communication is very important. Absolutely.

Shannon: Well, Deacon Jim, I apologize for putting you in the wrong diocese. That's interesting.

Deacon Jim: No worries. No worries. Not at all.

Shannon: It's not as cold in Allentown, probably. It's interesting because I was at your cathedral in June. I actually interviewed bishop Schlert, sat in the sat in the main aisle there at, as at the Cathedral Of Saint Catherine Of Siena. Is that right?

Deacon Jim: That's right.

Shannon: He's such a nice guy. And, He's wonderful.

Deacon Jim: Yeah. We're one wonderful bishop. Yeah.

Shannon: That's good. That's great. You're right there. I I took some pictures, so I'll I'll post some pictures of that cathedral a little bit later on. I wanna go over to, to deacon Richard.

We've heard about the deacon as being the minister of the cup. What does that mean exactly?

Deacon Richard: Well, it, when we're at the altar, if you're deacon of the altar, we have the privilege to to be able to elevate the cup, which is the precious blood of Jesus, along with with the priest. And, it shows that unification and the the importance of the, of being the deacon of the altar, to be able to, I wouldn't it's not it's not you're not, concelebrating, but you are, showing your office, in the importance of, of of the when the chalice is raised, and the body and blood of Jesus is is raised in in thanksgiving.

Shannon: The deacon also, does what they call the preparation of the table. Right? Like, when the when somebody first goes over and starts setting up for mass, the deacon usually does that, right, when the priest stays in their presider's chair?

Deacon Richard: Yeah. And so, when you're deacon of the mass or deacon of the altar, the the chalice, the cruets, will be and and if there's any unconsecrated, host in the suburbium, you'll bring that to the to the altar. So you prepare the altar. You'll lay down the, the corporal, which is a usually, it's a rectangle or or square cloth, and then the chalice and the, the pattern, which is the usually, that it's the big host that the priest will elevate. You'll put that on the altar, and then what will happen is is that the deacon in in my parish, on Sunday masses, the gifts are brought forward by, by, parishioners.

And so I'll go down, I'll receive the, the wine and the saboria along with the altar servers, and we'll bring it up. And then what happens is is the deacon will pour the wine in most cases. Again, there are some priests or bishops that are particular, but in most cases, what what I do is I pour the the wine into the chalice, and and then I I pour, a little bit of water as, and then offer that to, then either the priest will receive it or I'll I'll place it on the corporal, for the priest to, to begin his prayers.

Shannon: One of the things I found very, very interesting is, of course, the deacon reads the gospel. Right? And you're kind of the first one to do it. Like, the priest doesn't do it. But even if the pope was at the mass, it would be a deacon who read the gospel.

Is that right?

Deacon Richard: Yeah. So when we are, heralds of the gospel. That is I would would I would say that is the primary role of the deacon. And I'll give you an example. My wife and I, celebrated twenty five years of marriage.

And for the first time, we we went away, for our anniversary. We went to Portugal without the children, but thank goodness for ring cameras. And, and and I was able when when we went to Fatima, I, had shown my credentials to the sacristan, and, I was able to, I didn't know who was celebrating mass that day, the outdoor mass. And, the, the emcee came over to me, and he said, okay. You will, proclaim the gospel.

You will carry out the book of the gospels, and you will assist the cardinal. So it was the cardinal that was, celebrating mass, and so I carried, the book of gospels. And for those who have been to Fatima, you'll you'll appreciate this. The, the book of the gospels is encased in this, steel or, it's it's a very heavy piece of metal, and, and you're carrying it out, and you're you're processing through the chapel of apparitions where our blessed mother had appeared. And this is an interesting, story.

So as I was processing out and it's it's a good walk to the to the altar to the, for the outdoor mass. As I was coming out and and the ultra servers were way ahead of me, I heard this sort of, you know, I could hear the the, the people there. They were they were talking, like, and you could hear sort of cameras going off. And and I I didn't want to turn around and stop and look like what what was going on. But what happened was there were two white doves walking in front of me in unison.

And that's what I looked down, and I didn't want to drop the book of the gospels. And these two white doves were walking in sync in in, like, in sync, towards the sanctuary. And it was just an incredible thing, and my the hairs and the hairs on my arms are still standing, just talking about it. And I just looked down, and and when the altar servers got to the foot of the sanctuary, they had stopped. The emcee had also asked everyone else to stop in the procession, and I stopped, and so had these two white doves.

It was just an incredible thing. So, so I was able to proclaim the gospel in in Fatima, Portugal. It was incredible to, to to proclaim it in English. They there were others who proclaimed it in different languages to assist the cardinal and to look out, out into, into the area and just see, the thousands of people who were there to worship. It was it was an incredible thing, to be able to do, at, and, you know, so that's sort of the highlight.

And you just to to deacon Jim's earlier comment, you really feel a sense of unworthiness, and I was the only deacon there. There must have been, like, 50 priests, there sell concelebrating with the cardinal. But and you look out and you're there and you're thinking, wow. Like, this is you you just you you feel a little bit of sense of unworthiness, but then you're really thankful for, the gift that, God is and and thankful that, you know, you answered the call.

Shannon: Yeah. How special to be able to serve with a cardinal. We had, a cardinal came to my parish, a cardinal from Guatemala, Cardinal Ramazzini in South Florida three or four years ago. And I was actually the sacristan, so I had set everything up and I ended up serving at this mass. And I was told he spoke no English, so we got a Spanish missile and right and he spoke a little bit of English, you know.

It's kind of everybody does, I guess. But, right when they started playing the music to go down the aisle, he said, do you want me to do this in English or Spanish? I said, well, I thought we're doing it in Spanish. He's like, what do you want? I'm like, you're the cardinal.

Make a decision. I don't know. You outrank me. Whatever you want. Do it in Italian.

Alright, Jan. How you doing over there?

Jan: Yeah. Just, you know, Shannon, the big smile that's across my face right now because deacon Richard was talking about Fatima. Most of you have got a huge devotion for Fatima. And it's funny because when deacon Richard and I, met, it was just prior to the wedding anniversary, and it transpired that deacon Richard actually stayed in the same hotel as I stayed in Fatima. So it was so lovely.

And and just hearing, from a deacon's point of view, like, I've been in the, you know, the Chapel De Apparitions and, you know, been around the sanctuary a lot. So, you know, as as laity, so actually hearing it from a deacon's point of view where he's processing out and the torch lit procession, the rosary, various things. I can totally understand what you're saying, and I couldn't even imagine carrying the gospel or or or, you know, assisting there because it was just spectacular being there. You can very much feel the presence of our lady of Fatima. They are very, very much so.

So I wanted to go back to Deacon Jim, and I love seeing Deacon Jim because it's such a Scottish name. And I wondered what, what would you say is the best part of serving the church as a deacon?

Deacon Jim: Sure. You know, having served the church for a number of years as just a as a lay professional, I recognized, the tremendous stresses that our clergy are under. At least here in The United States, we have a real shortage of vocations. And it became apparent to me that, understanding the role of the deacon, our role is to try to make their load a little lighter, to try to carry some of the burden, some of the weight over the responsibilities of the parish, because there just aren't enough priests, at least in our diocese, to go around. And so the role of of I think the best role for me or the best part of it is just being of service to them knowing that, I contributed to their overall pastoral vision, their pastoral mission, being of maybe the best, maybe even on on a more personal level, bringing Christ, to others, bringing Christ to the parishioners.

Even as a as a layperson, being a Eucharistic minister is so special to be to give Jesus, to my fellow parishioners and to be present, to them, I think is, is a real blessing. And, as I said before, it requires a lot of prayer and a lot of humility, to know that, you know and I think this is the biggest lesson from my formation. It's not about me. You know? It's about Christ.

It's about the Eucharist. It's about Jesus, and it's about trying to be Jesus for for others, and whatever that means for them. It I have to take myself out of the equation and just kinda pray about what is God calling me to do. And so I think the greatest blessing is just being present to the people of God. I will say that through the formation process, one of the great unexpected blessings was getting to know my classmates, who are now my brother deacons.

And, I have developed such great friendships with them, and my wife has too with their wives and these brothers who are like brothers to me now. When we're together, it's kind of like being with family after six years, having gone through this journey together. And so, kind of that joy of fraternal brotherhood. And, you know, even, deacon Richard and I just kinda met face to face this week for the first time, but you automatically kinda have that immediate connection with a fellow deacon who's in that same ministry, even if you don't know them, knowing that we're both here, for service. And, to to meet other brothers who have dedicated their lives to this, is a real blessing as well, and being part of that universal church.

Jan: That's lovely. And I'm so glad you were able to meet face to face. That is so special. I also wanted to ask about deacons. Do these typically stay in a parish?

Because we know that priests, you know, can be assigned to different parishes maybe every few years or so. But do deacons normally stay in the one parish, or do they move around to different parishes?

Deacon Jim: I think from my experience of working in a couple of different dioceses is that deacons, most of them tend to stay at the same parish. Although it's not unusual for them to need to move, if there is a need, you know. In fact, just at at the cathedral, the other permanent deacon who was there previously five years was just transferred to another parish here locally because, the deacon there, needed to, have some surgery and will eventually be stepping down because he's entering retirement age and we don't, we don't have enough deacons to go around. We couldn't we didn't have enough deacons to have two at the cathedral. So, I won't take it personally that he left right after I got there, but, no, that was actually the bishop's decision.

But, but yeah. So it it's well, it's not unusual. It does happen that they do move around, but I think they move priests around a lot more than deacons. Is that your experience too, deacon Richard?

Deacon Richard: Yes. Absolutely. In our archdiocese, every six years, the, the priests are moved, but, it's very seldom that, that a deacon will move. And and the only time the only occasions where they have moved, it's because they've they've moved outside of the diocese. They've they physically have moved.

They're living in a in an in another diocese. So that's the only experience that I have but usually they're there, until something else happens

Deacon Jim: Yeah, that's an important point. We just we had a friend who was from Connecticut, Hartford area, but he moved down to the Diocese of Allentown for a time. And now he just, transferred up to Omaha to be near his kids in his, retirement years. So he's actually worked in three different diocese. So you do have that ability as a deacon, to move.

You know? We're we're in, cold Pennsylvania, so maybe sunny Florida sometime in the in the future. Who knows? But, yeah, you we have that option. But not typically typically within the diocese, you would stay where where the bishop needs you.

Jan: Or maybe even to to sunny Scotland One day.

Deacon Jim: You never know. God's plan. You never know.

Jan: You'll love it. I I I hope you and Deacon Richard can come and visit Scotland or

Shannon: Love it.

Jan: Come to America. You would. You would love it. You would love it.

Deacon Jim: Love it. Love it.

Jan: So what advice would you give men who are considering the location of a permanent deacon? What advice would you give them?

Deacon Jim: Sure. I would, first thing you wanna do is pray. And, a very close second is talk to your wife and really begin that dialogue, I think, early on, because, as I said, it's a journey that you take together. And as Shannon pointed out, she's got to sign off every step of the way. But I think in prayer, for me, prayer was so formative.

And while I did pray as a layperson, I prayed much more intently because right from the beginning of the formation process, they ask you to start getting into the habit of doing morning prayer and evening prayer. And I'll be honest, that was not something I was in the habit of doing. And being disciplined in your prayer life is is a great joy, and it also brings, a lot of clarity, not just in speaking the prayers, but of just listening for the voice of God and asking, for what His will is for your life. And also inviting your wife into that same conversation and into that same dialogue. And so, I would say a lot of prayer.

And also speak to other deacons, and and find out what their experience is in the diocese. And they're always happy to share, you know, what it is that they do and and the joys and the challenges too. I one of our parish deacon would sometimes tease my wife. Oh, you're gonna be a church widow sitting there in the pews all by yourself, when he becomes a deacon someday. And I would say, alright, Richard.

That's enough. But but there's a little sense that, you know, there is a sense of that that, you know, as I as I'm up on the altar, my wife our kids are grown and out of the house, so my wife is going to mass together is something that we enjoy doing, have always enjoyed doing. And so that again, that's one of the sacrifices that your wife makes, and, she has to be okay with that, and she has to be able to put that in its proper context. And so, so that, again, I go back to that communication with your wife, but really talking, I think, with the other deacons and asking their experiences too can be really helpful. I will say one other piece that was really helpful to me in my formation and continues to be a source of strength for me today, is during COVID when we were all separated, a couple of my classmates and I decided that we would get together, and do evening prayer together.

And so we're on a text chain with several other guys, and the group has actually grown over the years, where we call into a conference line at night and we read evening prayer together. And so we create that that group was very instrumental, I think, in providing for me a support group, a a group that I could just bounce things off of. They bounce things off of me. And so that really helped me get in the habit of doing evening prayer, which is sometimes can be even more challenging than morning prayer. Morning prayer, you get up, I have my coffee, I'd send my morning prayer, I'm off.

But sometimes evening prayer, life gets crazy at night. You're doing different things. Things can get out of whack and suddenly it's 10:30 at night. But having a group of guys where every night around 08:00, we're shooting out a text to the group. Hey.

Is anybody available to pray for evening prayer? And while we can't do it every night, we do, some almost every night, somebody's getting together to do evening prayer. And and it's not always at the same time. So you have to be a little flexible But that was a really important group for me, in building, even stronger connections and stronger brotherhood and having even deeper dialogue on what it means what this will mean for my life and what this will mean for their life and and really a good support group among my classmates.

Shannon: This could probably be a trivia question, but deacon Richard, if there's a lot of people up on the around the altar, right, a lot of guys in green, a lot of vestments. There's a way you can tell who's a priest and who's a deacon because because deacons wear a dalmatic and priests wear a chasuble. But how can somebody sitting out in the first pew look up there, and what was the difference between those two vestments?

Deacon Richard: Yeah. So the dogmatics for for Deakins will have, two lines that go across, the left and right side. It kinda looks like the letter, I don't know, deacon Jim, we'd say the letter h. Would that be fair?

Deacon Jim: Yeah. Absolutely. Mhmm.

Deacon Richard: And and then priests will have the chozzable, and it it looks like the letter y. It it's angled in towards the center of their chest. And so that's one way if you're wearing dogmatics or chozable. But you'll know a deacon because, also, the deacon wears a stole, and the stole, will go over their shoulder. So it'll sit on their left shoulder and come across their body and then, and then over to the right side on their right, hip.

So you'll always can tell a deacon, by that way because they wear a stole, whereas a priest would wear, again, it's theirs their stoles as well, but it it goes around their neck, and, and it lays in front of them on the left and right side. So those are, the easiest detection. Now, in in the archdiocese of Toronto, this is probably unique to, Canada. Deacons can wear their clerics, as well. So sometimes they can, we I'll wear my clerics, which means that, you know, you when I go to a funeral, I'll wear it as a symbol of representing the church, but I'll also have my deacon pin.

So you'll always see and I think in deacon Jim's profile photo, he's got his deacon pin on. So deacons will wear their pin on their usually on their left lapel, and, you'll see it's a it's a crucifix with a stole going across as well. So that's how you'll know, they're a deacon. I I funny story. When I got on a flight and I had had my, my suit on, and I and it was more it was a business travel flight, but, I had worn my deacon pin to, a church function, and I I forgot it was there.

And when I got on the flight, as I was getting off, this lady had said to me, you're a deacon. I said, yeah. How do you know? I I can see by your pin, and I totally forgot it was there. And then she asked me, would you mind giving me a blessing?

I said, sure. No problem. So right in the, in the in the middle of the, just at the gate, I gave her a blessing. And so that was, it was pretty, that was an interesting moment. But, yeah, that's how you how you can tell a deconfirm.

Shannon: And the Dalmatic has has sleeves, right, where the chest double doesn't. Is that right?

Deacon Richard: That's right. Yes. That's right. Yeah.

Shannon: Now you get to do these blessings, sisadeacon. I know there's some unusual blessings. I mean, there's blessings for house. There's blessings for a car, but what are what are some more of the unusual ones people might not know about this in that that big book?

Deacon Richard: Well, I have the shorter book of blessings, but, you know, there are blessings you can offer for animals. You can offer for, I have here a new building, a gymnasium.

Shannon: How about for, for x accounts? Is there a blessing there?

Deacon Jim: Only for you, Shannon. Only for you. Absolutely.

Shannon: Right to the Decastrian room. See if we

Deacon Jim: can get that added.

Deacon Richard: Yeah. Office shop. So there's tools. You can bless tools, animals, of course. Tools, you

Shannon: mean, like, if I had a hammer, I could bring it to

Deacon Richard: you to be blessed? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Equipment for work.

So there is lots of blessings. Now I've like, the only I haven't been asked to bless, anything other than I blessed cars, sacramentals like rosaries, homes, and, and people. But, I haven't been asked to bless tools. I should probably bless my own tools because they seem to be disappearing. I'd probably find them in my kid's room or something.

But, yeah, I, I Doctor.

Shannon: Is there a blessing for like, for like dinner to lower the calories or something?

Deacon Richard: Doctor. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think so. I think it, it, they're actually the Thanksgiving blessings are pretty, just like there's the first meal, the second meal, and it goes all the way.

There's a there's a few blessings. It's almost like you're having a seven course meal, and there's a blessing for each one, a different one. So yeah.

Jan: I think the next question he's going to ask you, Deacon Richard, is would you bless his fruit cake?

Shannon: That's an enathema, I think. Tell us about because you guys are both permanent deacons, but there's there's something called transitional deacons. What what is that?

Deacon Richard: Well, yeah. So transitional, every priest, a Catholic pea priest, becomes a deacon first, before they're, before they are ordained priests. So they're ordained as a transitional, deacon, and that is essentially they're on the path towards becoming priests. And, it's not, you know, it's it's the permanent diaconate is when you're a permanent deacon, it's not, we're not on the way to priesthood. We are permanent deacons, whereas transitional deacons are on the way, to to priesthood.

Shannon: So And there's no difference in in the duties, though. I mean, both No. Yes. Exactly the same.

Deacon Richard: Exactly the same. And so sometimes, you know, it's, priests, forget that, you know, they they they were they are deacons. I mean, just because you become a priest, you you you stop becoming a deacon. Right? So when you're ordained as a deacon, that's an indelible mark.

So they are deacons and they are priests as well. And so so

Shannon: That's like that's like the fullness fullness of the orders. Right? Like like a a bishop would still be a priest as well as a deacon. Right?

Deacon Richard: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so, yeah, Jim, I don't know. Do you do you have, anything to add there on that?

Deacon Jim: No. I think you hit it all perfectly. Yeah. I, as I think they they tell you that too. Our bishop reminded us all that, yes, he is also a deacon, you know, and and that's that's part of the ministry.

I it's it's interesting. At the cathedral, we usually have a transitional deacon. It just seems to be where they assign them. And so I've been blessed to get to know our transitional deacon a little bit this year. And, you know, while, and and what's fun is that I'm a first year deacon, and he's, you know, in his one and only year as a deacon.

But, you know, sometimes we will split up the weekend. I'll do homilies for a couple of the masses. He'll do homilies for a couple of the masses. But he's also got another level. He's getting ready to take the next step.

And so he's being mentored not only by his pastor and his brother priest, but also by the bishop, to take that ascend to that that higher role of being a priest. So it's beautiful to watch. It's beautiful to be a part of that.

Shannon: If anybody wants to ask a question, feel free to request the microphone. Let me just ask both of you. I will start with Deacon Richard first. Has there been any moment that stands out since you were ordained to the diaconate that where where you realize you really made a difference in somebody's life? Was there, like like, your fondest memory since you become a since you became a deacon?

Deacon Richard: Yeah. I I think I think speaking to, seminarians who are in, either on the way for for priesthood, so they're they're, they're journeying towards priesthood, and then other, other deacons, or, I guess, candidates. I would say the one moment I think there was one of our brother deacons, or he was I was already ordained, but he he was in second year because there's always a two year, gap, between, the intakes. So I was in my first year. He was in his second year, as a deacon.

I was already ordained, but he was in seminary. And I remember him really thinking about giving up because, you know, you're turning in, papers that need to be graded. We were affiliated with the University of Toronto, and, and he's working full time raising kids. And he was just really feeling like, okay. You know, I I can't do it.

And he just happened to reach out to me and ask me, you know, what was it like. And I told him that, I had those moments many times, and I'm sure deacon Jim probably as well, where you you just feel like you're walking through quicksand, and you just can't get to the other end. And, and but you persevere in prayer. And and, and so we I the advice I gave to him was, how often are you going to adoration besides when you're at the seminary? And his answer was, that's the only time.

And I said, spend more time in adder Eucharistic adoration if you can. Add another hour or two during your week. And, you you know, now he's he's, he's on on his way. He he was ordained, and I remember him saying to me that was the best advice that I could get because I was my wife and I were ready to to send the letter in saying that we weren't, we weren't gonna go

Deacon Jim: forward.

Jan: Deacon, I just wanted to mention, both you and Deacon, Jim. I wonder if you could tell us a wee bit more about the community that's been set up.

Deacon Richard: Yes. We we, we stab I established the, Grow In Our Catholic Faith community, and, you know, we're it's still in its very early stages. And, Deacon Jim and I had a chance to chat about that, when we spoke, earlier this week. And we really want to be able to, to to grow this community where, people can can feel nourished and and grow in their Catholic faith and and be able to provide spaces like this or content where, where you feel, you know, you're you're growing in your and because I I think I've said this before, and and I'll let deacon Jim also, speak to it as well. But cardinal Collins who ordained me, he had said to all of us, he said, you know, the longest journey a Christian makes is from their head to their heart.

And so, so we really want to, provide that, the content and the spaces where you're feeling like you can grow. You know, one thing that's very unique about Deakin's is most of them, are married, are working full time, have children, or raising children, or have raised children. And so, you know, we we go through those everyday struggles, whether it's at work or whether it's a family life. And, and so we can definitely offer, some advice around, how to how to overcome those challenges through prayer, through, the Holy Spirit, deacon Jim.

Deacon Jim: Yeah. I I look forward to working with you on that.

Shannon: Let me just let me just clarify for people. When you say community, you're you're talking about, deacon Richard, a community here on x. It's a group people can join on x. Right?

Deacon Richard: Yes. Yeah. It's pinned in my, profile. And Deacon Jim is now a moderator along with, Jan.

Shannon: Go ahead, Deacon Jim. I didn't mean to cut you off.

Deacon Jim: No. No. You're good. This is actually my first, spaces, so thank you for inviting me on it. I've, yeah, I'm I'm still learning a little bit about how the community works, but, my wife and I have had an online ministry for a few years now.

And, the the reach of of the community is is tremendous, and I think X is a great forum for that. And, you know, I mentioned to deacon Richard, you know, we there are other deacons too that once in a while we might invite on for to tell their story and share their wisdom as well, and and I'm sure there are others that we will, in these spaces. So I I look forward to learning and growing, with everybody through it.

Jan: It's a blessing, actually, deacon John, when you mentioned that because, deacon Richard has been able you may or may not know this, but we pray the rosary together, on every night and have done come three years in May. Shannon also prays the rosary at 8AM eastern time, Monday to Friday, and we've been really blessed for the support where deacon Richard, along with his family, with his wife, with his job, with the church, is able to come on and, you know, speak to us and offer blessings and pray with us. And that's a real tremendous support online because sometimes online, it can be like the Wild West. So it's great. It's really great.

So so we are really grateful.

Deacon Jim: Absolutely. And, I I think it it also just speaks to the new evangelization and all the the various ways in which we're called to share God's love, throughout the world. And so, yeah, x is a wonderful forum, especially with all the the changes that have been made in in recent years as far as free speech and the rest of it. I think it it provides that opportunity for us to gather in in a different forum. So we'll look forward to helping to grow that.

Shannon: Deacon Jim, I'm not sure if you got a chance to answer that question, but, like, your most special memory. I know you've got, what, four months. So

Deacon Jim: Four whole months. Yeah.

Shannon: Maybe not as big a history to draw from, but what's been the most special moment? And maybe that was just the day you were ordained.

Deacon Jim: You know, it's funny. The day I was ordained just felt like a blur. I was so tired. It was it was, it was almost like the day of of my wedding. I just, I I I was so blessed to have my family and loved ones near on that day, and, and I don't think I slept that well in in quite a while that night after it was all over.

But I I'll tell you just a quick a very, very quick story because I know we've been going a while here. But one of my classmates, his name was Vaughn, passed away. He was he received a diagnosis of stage four colon cancer, pancreatic cancer, I'm sorry, pancreatic cancer a year before our ordination, and we entered together. And to see Vonn fight in that last year of our formation, it really pulled us together in a special way as a class. And, Vonn well, while a lot of guys who were facing that kind of illness who were most likely gonna lose that battle and were probably living their last year of their life, might have stepped down from the diaconate and decided, you know, I'm gonna just focus in on me.

I'm gonna spend a little more time at my beach house. Yeah. I don't have a beach house, but Vaughn did. But I couldn't blame him if he wanted to spend a little more time in his last year, there. And, but Vaughn, I'll tell you, on Father's Day, we were called on Father's Day to go to class.

And I was grumpy that day. I thought oh come on father's day It's like one of the few years we get as dads right to just you know Kick back and and be spoiled, but we went because that's what we're all about in in the diaconate. Deacon Richard can attest to this. You learn about the word obedience. So, obedience, we were there on Father's Day.

And I'm sitting there at this table, and we're listening to our formation director give a very good talk. But But, again, I'm a little grumpy because it's Father's Day, and I'd rather be home. I look over to my left, and my buddy Vaughn is sitting there. And I'm thinking at that moment, I felt incredibly ashamed. I thought, here I am complaining to myself that I'm here on Father's Day, and this is most likely Vaughn's last Father's Day.

And it was. And where is he? He's sitting here with the rest of us learning how to be a deacon, learning how to serve God. And that was one of the most moving experiences of my entire formation journey to see this man sacrifice Every minute he could in service to the lord the bishop, in his wonderful wisdom ordained vaughn a month early and praise God that he did, because Vaughn passed away just a week before, our ordination. So he was only a deacon, one month, of his whole life.

And, he was buried in his alb. And, and he was, he was ordained deacon. But, I've we came close with his family, with his kids through the process, and so did my wife. And and it drew us closer as a, as a class. And I think as a class, we now have an intercessor that, we can that we can call upon Vaughn.

He's not a saint, but, but he is he is there praying for all of us, and he was our our role model and our inspiration throughout the whole process. So for me, that was the most moving moment so far in this diaconate journey, especially one that was unlike any other that I would ever have in, I think, in in a formation journey.

Shannon: Such a beautiful story. Thank you, deacon Richard and deacon Jim. We hope you've enjoyed our conversation with deacon Jim and deacon Richard on the permanent diaconate. You can listen to all of our podcast episodes on our website, catholicfrequency.com. You can also sign up for our free newsletter, and once a week, we'll send you an email that tells you about upcoming spaces on the social media platform x and about upcoming episodes.