The Catholic Land Movement

Shannon: Welcome to episode 13 of the Catholic Frequency podcast. Today, we're talking to Michael from the Catholic Land Movement. Hey, Michael. How's it going?

Michael: Hey, Shannon. I'm doing well. How are you?

Shannon: I'm doing well. I've seen your accounts, for you and for the Catholic land movement for for, you know, a year or so. I think we're following each other. And I I know you had a conference last year, and I sort of looked at that, but I don't know. I just sort of kind of been intrigued by this idea of the Calvet land movement, but I've never, like, sort of dug into it.

So finally, my curiosity got the best of me, and I said, I'm gonna reach out and see if you'll do a space, and here we are.

Michael: Well, thank thank you for reaching out. I'm happy to be here and, and grateful for the opportunity to reach your audience and talk to people about, the land movement.

Shannon: Alright. So I'll just start with a very basic question. What is the Catholic land movement?

Michael: A great place to start, right right at the beginning. So the Catholic land movement is, in the contemporary is a continuation of, you know, the the Catholic social action that stretches all the way back to kind of, you know, the early, nineteen hundreds. And so there was various iterations in between its origins. And now, in its origins, the Catholic land movement was was mostly grounded in the land associations of England, which did things like train, young farmers and even old farmers, but but trained people in vocational and craft skills to bring production back into the household, and kind of, push against the cultural trend of rapid industrialization and urban consolidation that was happening at that turn from, you know, the eighteen hundreds to the nineteen hundreds. Pope Leo XIII wrote an encyclical that many people are familiar with called Rerum Novarum.

And in that cyclical, encyclical, he suggested a third way of economics, one that prioritized property ownership, that prioritized, virtue, the rights of labor, one that, but prioritize Catholic families and and the development of families. And from that, essayists and social critics and social organizers of the time of the day back, you know, a little bit more than a hundred years ago, read this encyclical and were deeply moved by it. And there was a Dominican priest by the name of father Vincent McNabb that said we mustn't just and this is kind of paraphrasing him, but we mustn't just, argue in principle what we should be proving in fact. And so while everyone was moved by this encyclical and a series of writings by some famous writers that many of us know, Chesterton and Hiller Bellock, talking about the, the the this this new idea, this third way of of social order and, and an economic order, what the land movement tried to do was give it some practical life to prove some of these principles in fact. And so it built up these land associations, which basically supported, a type of Catholic agrarianism or productive property ownership that was, focused on getting both property and the means of production and the technical skills into the hands of people.

So they weren't, oppressed or kind of suffocated by the economic, social, and political trends of the day, that they had a degree of independence from those things because they could provide for themselves for themselves off of property they owned. If we fast forward to, the contemporary land movement, we are really just continuing that very same work. So we are continuing to to to put it into a mission statement. The purpose of the land movement is the rural resettlement of Catholics onto productive property they own. And that sentence can be really broken down into a lot of different components, but the contemporary land movement focuses on four main mission pillars.

One is the functional resettlement of Catholics, meaning if I want to move to a rural area, which one do I move to? What where what's the liturgy like? What's the community like? Where where do I belong? So helping people on that journey of rural resettlement, which many, many people are on, is the first pillar work of the land movement.

The second pillar work of the land movement is that you can give a man a forest. You know, you you could give a man property, and you can give a man an ax, but without the technical know how, that forest doesn't turn into fuels and and, houses and and, you know, goods. Right? Right? We need technical know how and technical know how and the techniques to transform property and resources into material goods for a family, those are really, rooted in cultural traditions.

And so we need a means to teach one another. We need a vessel in which we carry on and educate people in the cultural traditions and the technical skills of how to be productive, on property, that you own. And that goes everything from agrarian skills to craft skills. And so it used to be that agrarian, I like to call them land and handcrafts, some but agrarian skills and and craft skills and trade skills were something that was kind of ubiquitously common. And there was really just a peer to peer network of your neighbors teaching neighbors, you know, how to do things like slaughter pigs or raise chickens or plant corn or timber frame a barn.

Unfortunately, those peer to peer networks in the contemporary have been largely diminished. And so the second pillar of the land movement in the contemporary is the restoration of that peer to peer education network amongst Catholics to recover and, and return to those very basic skills. The third pillar work of the contemporary land movement is the fellowship networks that are necessary, to be successful, as we move back landward and move back to more basic and traditional skills, anybody who's homesteaded or farmed or, you know, tried to, you know, forge a closer relationship with the landscape, you know, grounded in the faith, understands that, part of what is necessary in that is a deep relationship with your neighbors, not just to market, you know, products to your neighbors, but I mean a living real relationship. And so the land movement through our chapter network and through our events, gives a real space for fellowship between agrarian Catholics to kind of, flourish. One of the things I always say to people is they get in get involved, with land movement organizing is that the informality that emerges from participating with the land movement is a feature and not a bug of the land movement.

So you'll find that once you introduce kind of land movement rubrics into your parish community or into your your circle or group, you'll find that all of a sudden, like, the women are getting together for a sewing group maybe, and then the the the, you know, homeschool group develops or, the guys get together on, you know, Friday nights for timber framing or, you know, a book club develops to read the old encyclicals or Chesterton or something. But maybe is it land movement? Is it not land movement? It doesn't really matter. The the the informality and the real relationship network, that's the third pillar of, land movement organizing.

And then finally, it's funny to call it a fourth pillar because it's truly the base, the center, and where all the effort kind of, the destination of all the effort. But that that that fourth pillar is the glorification of God and kind of centering Christ in our life as Catholics, the the the the our liturgical life, our prayer life, our spiritual life, making sure that everything we do in the land movement is developing Catholic virtue and help help helping to take us to a deeper place in relationship with our identity as Catholics. And that fourth pillar work ends up, being a lot of communication with the ecclesiastical, making sure that sacraments are at our conferences or events, making sure that, that, you know, who are well catechized and then, in our and our doctrine is good, but also that prayer is being guided and spiritual life is being developed, by people's participation with the land movement. And so that's the that's the four, you know, contemporary pillars of, land movement work right now. I can give you a little scope where the land movement has, upwards of 24 chapters.

I we actually had just our chapter leadership meeting just last night, and there was, like, over 30 people in attendance. And, and these chapters usually range anywhere from, like, 40 to a hundred people. And, and these chapters in various parishes all across the country and really all across the world are engaged in a whole variety of of events and groups and, you know, so on so on and so forth. And so, and so there is a so there is a a very robust kind of grassroots network of chapters and land movement involved people and land movement, kind of mission overlap organizations that are all coming together under the umbrella of the land movement and working together to kind of coordinate, what what what what is happening, what we're seeing, which is this kind of vast back to the land movement for many, many Catholics. And so, so that is it in a nutshell.

I did that in, you know, just just under ten minutes. So that is it in in a nutshell, Shannon, what what the land movement is right now, but I can get really deep into lots of different aspects of that. So, so yeah.

Shannon: Well, yeah. When when you were answering there, there's a phrase that I that caught my ear, Catholic social action. Will you sort of talk about that a little bit more?

Michael: Yeah. Sure. So so, you know, social action is is, you know, the the organizing, to, bring Catholic life and and Catholic, presence and Catholic, leadership into the temporal realm of things. You know? So, there's lots of different ways that this happens.

Most of us are familiar as we live in a democracy with an orientation of social action being like a top down, approach in which we organize and agitate to get our leaders or politicians to kind of take on positions, whether it's banning abortion or or, you know, IVF stuff or, you know, the the the various social issues that we all all know about. Sometimes it's, organized around corporate works of mercy, very specifically, you know, care for the poor, care, you know, care for the homeless, whatever it is. But there's, there's oftentimes that we, are organizing, trying to get leadership and people in leadership positions to change policies or enact laws that kind of bolster, Catholic virtue, and it's the Catholic the the the presence of Catholic social teaching in the social order. And so the land movement is somewhat unique in that, we are not working on that top down, approach. We are working from a bottom up approach, meaning that we are asking ourselves if we are to kind of shift the temporal powers towards the kingship of Christ and we use a bottom up approach, what does that look like?

And so it looks like strong families rooted in property they own, productive with their neighbors in good Catholic fellowship, and then that that bottom up power helps to reorganize society in a myriad of ways to to to point it towards Christ. And so the land movement is an expression of bottom up social action, really grounded in the life of people and place. We're not waiting for politicians to give us permission or money or change a vast context. We are doing what we can with what we have from where we are right now. And so this idea of bottom up social action is a great way to, contextually understand why the land movement orients itself the way it does and and and what type of work the land movement is kind of drawn to do.

Shannon: Is that what is known by that term, subsidiarity?

Michael: Subsidiary is a Catholic's, social concept which states that, level of authority to achieve a, specific goal in a social order should be as low as possible. There's lots of different ways to kind of talk to or about subsidiarity, but I find the one I just said to be the most useful, that we should push authority down to the lowest level possible to achieve the social goal that we're, you know, trying to trying to get at, that we shouldn't create vast social systems to answer problems that really could be answered in a community or a household. And so subsidiarity is always pushing things to the local level, as much as possible. Right? So there's certain hierarchical things that if you're gonna have a organization that's dealing with national issues, well, you know, they'll they'll need to operate at a national level.

But we're always a subsidiary is always asking us to answer the the problems and questions as localized to those problems and questions as possible. And it's actually a brilliant way to think about and approach a lot of different social issues that flips things on their head sometimes where people think about the environment and they think about, you know, environmental, quote, unquote, answers to environmental problems are often like, you know, let's blanket fields and solar panels or, you know, create, like, crazy, you know, international carbon standards or something. Well, these are really in contrary. Those kind of answers are in are in contrary to the idea of subsidiarity, which would ask us to answer environmental questions and and good stewardship questions with localized, answers. And if you do that, you end up with small farms in balance with the, environment and kind of, cultural and and and and and social context with the in which they exist.

So so you you see a very different type of answer to problems when you answer it, paying attention to subsidiarity. And this is a social teaching principle of the church that has existed for a long time. And, there's quite a number of encyclicals that our popes have given us kind of instructing us to to these types of answers and focus.

Shannon: So so an example might be we want our local school board making decisions, not the Department of Education in, like, Washington, DC. Right?

Michael: Bingo. Yep. That's a that's a great example of subsidiarity in action. Or or instead of asking for, you know, federal grants, you know, to to solve local homelessness or something like this, that that we're going to solve that with the agency in the locality. You know?

How how do we as people come together in a community and and provide for the unhomed? You know, that what is the what is the subsidiary answer to that question?

Shannon: When you're first sort of giving us the presentation of what is the Catholic man land movement, you're talking about a third way. So what are the other ways? And and just sort of elaborate a little bit more on the third way.

Michael: Sure. So we exist in the modern context as the as the old world of, you know, monarchies and very localized power and and, you know, the pre industrial world, ended, you know, a little more than a hundred years ago, we saw the rise of kind of two orientations. One orientation, which was the idea that by, you know, liberating capital, in kind of liberal economic systems, we would create vast technological improvements that would that would kind of sort themselves out and serve people's needs. And on so so there was this idea of, like, free market kind of libertarianism, you know, capitalism, well, for for for lack of a better word. And then on the other side, we saw we saw the idea that, the common good, needs to be kind of controlled and dictated by the state and that private property is a detriment to people's lives and to the social or and it should be abolished and eliminated.

And, actually, everything should be collectivized even right down to the family, collectivized in a type of, like, you know, state or organization. And then, right, I'm I'm speaking to communism. And so at the onset of the industrial revolution, people really got two options. We had you could either, you know, follow the march of the capitalist world, or you could follow the march of the the the communist world. And and quite literally, the world, many people around the world picked one of those two paths, much to the disaster of many, many souls and lives, because neither one of those systems, really, is telling the truth, which the truth is that we have these eternal souls and that our life here on earth is one in which we should be cultivating virtue and that God has left a natural order in things that's evident, in our relationship to creation and our relationship to our families and our relationship to society at large.

And that these things have been well understood and and talked about in that social order. That that that good social order is one that respects that fundamental truth, and that creates kind of temporal conditions that that honor it. And so this third, idea would be one in which natural families, property ownership, good stewardship of, you know, one another as as brothers and sisters, but also of of the the earth and, and and the rest of creation that god has entrusted to us, that that that there is, like, a third way that's not not a balance between free market capitalism or, you know, the state's, obliteration of private property, but actually a complete third way, that that is an honoring of us as, children of God and that we have a purpose here to cultivate virtue in one another and get each other to heaven, and that, and that through that awareness, so that that kind of constant awareness and direction, we can discern a a temporal order of things that serves that purpose. And so, distributism is the name that was given to this third way by a set of English essayists and and kind of social theorists.

And, the idea was that well distributed private property, and and when I say that, I mean I don't mean distributed by the agency of the state. I mean, an economic order that keeps property in the hands productive property in the hands of as many people as possible. Well, that is a good lens through which to look at social policy. Like, does does the social order that that we're creating, does it make sure that a family can own a piece of property and provide for their needs on it? If it does, well, then it's it's it's trending towards the right direction.

And so that is essentially distributism, and the land movement is essentially a tooling of people to achieve that distributist end, whether it's the ownership of the land or learning how to make it productive or helping create markets, and relationships amongst people so that productivity can have exchange and kind of fruit, in a community. That is the goal of the land movement, which I would say is kind of like a real practical expression of the lofty goals of the English distributists, a hundred years ago. And so when I say third way, I say not not necessarily pure capitalism, something that's considering the common good, but also the rights of property and the destination of souls, you know, and not communism. So in that third path, it's been given a lot of different names, but, but, the Catholic land movement would understand it as distributism.

Shannon: We're talking to Michael from the Catholic land movement. If you have not shared the space, please repost it so more people can learn about this fascinating movement. Let me ask you just a little broader question. You you've touched on, like, the industrial revolution. What have we lost as a people with the industrial revolution?

I think we all know the benefits or the benefits they're kinda told to us, but what have we lost? Have we lost something?

Michael: Oh, abs absolutely. I mean, if we if we look at the ubiquity of of ownership, of debt free ownership, if we look at the, you know, that used to exist prior to the industrial revolution, if we if we look at, the health and culture of rural places, if we look at the ubiquity of trade skills and kind of know how, for people how to provide for themselves, I mean, I just think there's been a massive diminishment, of kind of the cultural beauty of humanity through the process of, industrialism over the, you know, past hundred years. And then kind of increasingly so into the contemporary where we see over the past few years this rapid, consolidation, through, you know, into what, like, a global technocratic order. Right? So so, so that's happening to us right now.

And I think many people are reacting to that in the same way that the early English distributors reacted to industrialists. I mean, that's why we're seeing such a robust kind of, like, homesteading movement or back to the land movement or or even a turn to, questions about morality and theology and religion that is leading many people back to the Catholic faith as well is because we're kind of looking at the failed promises of technological progress and, and and industrialism. And, I mean, there's been some pretty horrific consequences to all these things, whether it's to the cultural or social life of places, to the environmental, you know, and and and well-being of the created world, you know, right to our relationships with one another. I mean, I think it's fair to say that, the contemporary, you know, modernity has created conditions of alienation and, degrees of separateness and barriers between people that really are unprecedented, in in humanity's history prior to. And so, yeah, there we've lost we've lost a great deal.

I think we'd we'd spend the rest of the night talking about all the things that have been lost, you know, in the process of industrialism.

Shannon: Yeah. And especially if we moved into this information age. I mean, just a few decades ago, like, if you went to small town America and went to Main Street, it was like a charming street with, like, there was, like, a Hallmark card shop and some nice stores. Now when you go to small towns, there's, like, a vape shop and tattoo parlors. It's, like, very it's not quite what it was.

Even in the last few decades, you can see even small town America, like, rotting in some sense, some cultural sense.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, there's the there's the, you know, industrialism by its nature homogenizes. Right, it creates a type of kind of bland, you know, not not there's not local flavor to culture. You get the same strip mall at every place. It's the same Buc ee's or Walmart or what you know, whatever whatever it is.

It's it's the same everywhere. This is that that type of homogenization is is what the industrial process is all about. It's it's it's like a it's a it's a necessary component to it. And then in the digital revolution that that we've all experienced or many of us have experienced in our lifetimes, we can see that effect on music or or, you know, cultural life, in various places that there's just the the Internet is kind of homogenized people in this particular way, in in a in a cultural way. And so, so, yeah, there's there's, the the idea back to that subsidiarity question, the and and that question of the land movement.

The land movement is trying to give some kind of practical shape to the effort to, like, relocalize, to the effort to, like, answer questions with subsidiarity, to the effort of, like, a reestablishment of, of, you know, culture, which is ultimately, much culture is kinda rooted in agriculture and rooted in people's relationship to place. And so reestablishing that relationship to place is is a is a is a deep part of, you know, what the land movement's, effort is really in the land movement, I think, is a collection of people who recognize what we have lost and are looking to restore it with one another, to kind of return to a localized, intentful stewardship of our homes and our communities and our and our our farms and our, you know, households. That that that has definitely been lost or or at least greatly diminished over over the recent, you know, of of, you know, period of human history.

Shannon: By the way, I hate Buc ee's. It's so awful to go to a Buc ee's. I think if I had access to nuclear weapons, I might just nuke them all. They're just so awful. Don't ever go.

If you've never been, don't go. That might be against Catholic social teaching, so I guess I wouldn't do it. But I would think about it.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna we're we're we're gonna we're gonna offer a gentle path with the land movement that we don't have to nuke the buggies, but perhaps we can all encourage each other to garden a bit, and, and, you know, raise raise some pigs or, you know, raise some sheep and, you know, learn learn a couple trade skills and and and perhaps it might take a couple generations, but I I truly believe that, this work is written on the hearts of many, many people. I speak to many, many people about it all the time. I work I work a lot with land movement and land movement adjacent efforts, and these words are written on the heart of many people.

The words are different on every heart, but they all rhyme. And, it's emergent in a very, very powerful way all across the world. And, I am enthusiastic about stitching the efforts together and, helping create a a very broad movement, a social movement, that that that breathes life in into this this return and restoration that I think so many of us desperately, want to see happen, but are waiting for some direction or someone to say, hey. Take take the next step. Or, hey.

I know how to do this. Let me share with you. And so some of those people are in this room right now too.

Shannon: Earlier, you were talking about I think you said there was 24 chapters in The United States.

Michael: Yeah. Some of the some of those chapters are international, but there's about there's about 24, active chapters, but there's probably about 30. It's always funny. I I'm an orchardist. I have I have a kind of large orchard, cup couple hundred trees, and people always ask me, like, how many trees do you have exactly?

And And I'm like, well, do do I count the dead one that's, you know, I know is gonna die next year? Do I count all the little tiny pips that I'm growing in a garden box? Like, how many trees? So it's a little bit the same with the land movement chapters where I have, like, that there's there's, like, 24 leaders that met on a call last night that are running chapters. But there's leaders that, that, you know, didn't make the call.

There's people I'm orienting who I haven't heard from in, you know, a a week or so or two weeks or three weeks. There's people who disappear and are gonna come back, and there's the chapter out there that hasn't connected with the network yet, but, like, looked at the website and started a chapter and just hasn't called me yet. You know? It's it's very funny. Sometimes it takes me, like, three months to get somebody to, like, take the first steps in chapter formation, and then they do it.

And it's, like, another month until they have their second meeting, and then it's another, you know, month until they get together to do a project at someone's house. And then somebody else calls me, and I was like, oh, we've been meeting for a year, and we thought it was time to call. The, you know, the the the broader network, we we get together once a week. You know? So it's very it's very hard for me to pin an exact number, but somewhere around, like, you know, 25 to 30, I think, would be an an appropriate, you know, accurate, thing.

Our conferences, we have conferences kind of all over, and there's Lambda gets invited to lots of different, you know, conferences. And we have lots of different, like, mission overlap organizations that we're working with in in various capacities. And so, and so, there there's thousands of participants in land movement and land movement kind of tertiary or land movement, like, integrated activity, around the world. And so, it is it is rapidly growing as well, so much so that it's gotten the, you know, the eye of some people in the ecclesiastical, which which could, you know, take us into a discussion about their recent Rome trip and and kind of, you know, how how fast the land movement is is growing. And, again, for me and and in my perch and where I, you know, my my seat of of of witness is just that, it's every day.

There's dozens and dozens of people, who approach the land movement saying, hey. I wanna get involved or I wanna start a chapter or I wanna get involved with the chapter near me or I want to to, you know, take a look at this thing I'm planning. Hey. My farm's teaching a class, you know, on and on and on and on. So, it's a very, it's growing by leaps and bounds, every every week, every month.

You know, it's, it's a very robust and alive and kind of thriving movement organization.

Shannon: So can anybody start a chapter and would it just have to be in a rural place? Or if you're in, like, Atlanta, Georgia, can you start a chapter?

Michael: No. You can you can start a chapter anywhere anywhere you want. The there is, like, an orientation process, so you would kind of con you wouldn't kind of you would contact the, land moving through the website, send an email, say, hey. You know, I'd like to start something. Maybe, there wouldn't be a need to start something because there'd be something already started by you, or maybe there would be a need to start something.

And so helping coach all these, chapters into existence, there's definitely formulated, like, a best practice and and kind of rubrics of organization that that it developed. We have a little leadership packet, and we help orient people in kind of motivating principles so they understand the history and the kind of philosophy and and that that that's that's guiding the land movement, our our principles. And then once we're confident somebody's kind of grounded in those, we take them through the organizational rubrics of, like, here's how you have a first meeting, here's how you keep your data lists of people, how here's how you contact them, here's you know, we walk someone through the process of of organizing events and activities, usually based out of a parish group, although not always. We we've worked with religious. We've worked with you know, there's there's all different types of and sometimes people are just really remote, and it's only them.

And so, so, yeah, there's all different types. But, if you are interested in over the course of this conversation, you usually get to this at the end of the conversation, but, but if somebody's you know, if you're listening to this conversation, say, oh, man. I I this is something I'd like to be involved with, because we're not gonna even we're not gonna in the hour that we have together, you know, we're not gonna get very, far in helping you understand the real kind of scope of land movement activity. So if you are if you hear this and you're like, I would like to get involved more, I very much encourage you to send an email through the website, and and then we can connect you to either what's going on around you or help you cultivate kind of action where you are. And so yeah.

Shannon: We're gonna open it up in a little bit for questions. So if you have a question about the Catholic land movement, why don't you go ahead and request the microphone so we'll already have you up on stage. Michael, you've mentioned the website a couple times. What is that URL?

Michael: Yes. It's a catholiclandmovement.info. And so there, you can find find a chapter. The website is, we've gotten some great volunteers recently, people with a lot of technical skills. So the website's gonna kinda be rapidly changing over the next little bit.

We're gonna get maps up and, you know, there's there's all types of plans. Like I said, we just had a leadership meeting, yesterday where there is a lot of fruit from that about new directions. So keep an eye on the website because it will be changing. You know, if you if you go right after this call, go again next week and go again the week after that, because it will be changing a a a good bit over the next little bit. But, but you'll find a place in there to say, hey.

I wanna connect with a chapter and then just fill out the form and and then wait patiently for someone to get back to you. If, if you don't hear anything back, then then apply fortitude and write us again because persistence gets results. We get swamped with emails, and we are all volunteers. Everybody who works for the land movement is a is a volunteer. And so, we are not, you know, things we don't have, like, a professional staff answering emails all day, although we try and do our best to pretend that we do.

But, but stay persistent, and, and I promise you that somebody will get back to you and and loop you into and get you involved with what's going on, in your area.

Shannon: I know this is an international movement, but in The United States, like, what are some states? What are some places if if someone's Catholic and they're very intrigued by what we've been talking about tonight, where might they move? Like, what are some where are some Catholic communities sprouting out?

Michael: That that's great. The resettlement committee would be very thrilled with you asking that question, Shannon, because there's there's talk about getting, you know, a a kind of really good, profiles of different places where Catholic clustering has happened. Because of the land movements work, we've come into contact with, like, these clusters, of of of Catholics. So there's there's there's a good number of them. So New Hampshire is a is a great functional chapter.

Indiana region has, several chapters, you know, stretching from, like, Ohio all the way. There's there's, you know, to over to Indiana, there's a bunch of chapters there, or just kind of chapter activity, farms, retreat centers. It all depends. Right? People have different liturgical flavors that they're drawn to.

I don't know if flavors is the right word, but but different liturgies appeal to different people. So, you know, if you are FSSP or SSPX or, you know, Novus Ordo or whatever it is. There's there's different clusters of of Catholic communities that kind of answer that, those various liturgical dispositions. Ava, Missouri is a is a very interesting place. There's people, Catholics kind of clustering around a monastery there.

Florida is is interesting. I'll be in North Carolina, in the February because the diocese of Raleigh has, invited me there to to give a series of talks. So there's stuff happening in, North Carolina. Virginia's got a very, great chapter. There's a great chapter in California centered around a in a farm project called Our Lady's Ranch, but it's much it's kinda bigger than that because it's all the families in that area.

And so Texas, is online, and and then there's there's kind of clusters, and then there's also these, planned Catholic communities that some people are familiar with. And there's there's a kind of quite a few of these planned Catholic community efforts happening around the country. And one of the things that the land movement does is kind of, like, witness and track these things. One of the things that the resettlement, committee is actually busy working on. Right before I got on this call, I was talking with the resettlement committee because they very much want to create, like, a list answering the question you just asked, Shannon.

Like like like, what are the different flavors of these different places, you know, right on the website so people could just go and kind of read profiles around the country of of what's going on and then connect with with people, through the land movement, to to maybe explore potentially a a move to that to that place. And so, and so forthcoming, more more work on that on that front. But, there's quite a few Catholic clusters of kind of Catholic agrarianism happening around the country, and there's quite a few healthy land movement chapters around the country that do all kinds of stuff.

Shannon: With a question in the comments, and I don't know if you'll know off the top of your head, anything going on in Idaho.

Michael: I I would have there is probably a decent list in Idaho. There was a Telegram channel for a while between, like, Idaho, Calaglam and Homesteaders, but kinda off the map for me right now is if I've I couldn't tell you if I know, a a leader that I work with regularly is not jumping out at me. In fact, the Pacific Northwest has got a ton of interest, but, I haven't gotten there hasn't been, like, the emergence of a of a strong leader who wants to take the commitment to kind of organize things. So there was for a little while in Washington, but, but they you know, people move and things change. And so, the Pacific Northwest is actually a region where we're definitely looking to establish, a a a kind of a a a a leader who could help, who could help cultivate more things there.

So if you're interested, you know, in in doing that, write the write write the website and say, hey. I am in Idaho. I'd I'd I'd like to talk about, you know, what land movement activity in Idaho looks like. There's if I don't if if the land movement doesn't have a leader in a state or a location, it is very likely that we have, like, 20 to 30 people on a list waiting for somebody to put stuff together. And so once you make it through our leadership orientation, we will open up that state list to you, and then it becomes your job to kind of make something happen where you are.

Shannon: One more question. Anything in Scotland?

Michael: No. Again, there's there were two chapters in The UK. There's one chapter in The UK now. There was a there is a chapter in, Portugal, but I haven't heard from them in a while. There's been interest about a chapter form formation in Italy, but we're just in the beginning stages there.

Shannon: I volunteer to move to Italy, so it's signing up.

Michael: Yeah. It's it's, Italy's a basic. I'm I'm the heels of a Rome trip. I I I desperately would like to get back to Italy myself at some point. But, but, yeah.

So there's, there's definitely there's an there's a very is it a good, Australian chapter. Again, a Catholic cluster community that is forming around, that is forming around a monastery, I believe, a Benedictine monastery, but, but but they've built a couple houses and are building this this beautiful monastery. And so, and so, yeah, there's definitely international chapters. There could definitely be more of them if if, if we could find more workers in the Catholic land movement vineyard. So so, yeah, there are a lot of international interest, but, maybe only five, a handful of chapters.

Shannon: I wanna welcome deacon Richard, who's a deacon in the great country of Canada. He's a member of the clergy. Deacon, what do you think about this?

Deacon Richard: It's it's it's been, very informative and enlightening, and, I I just had a finished serving mass. I was in the car and and picked up on the conversation. So I'm very intrigued. I wanted to ask, are were we the first to sort of were were Catholics the first to the post, I guess, on agrarian movements, or are are there other offshoots of agrarian movements in other denominations?

Michael: Yeah. There's a funny story with that. I had a Lutheran preacher ask me one time if he could join the Catholic land movement. The the answer is yes on your conversion. Appealing, isn't it?

But, but, no. The Catholic man movement is is is Catholic, so, you know, everybody who's participating in the movement is is is Catholic. That is a barrier to entry, an intentful one. Agrarianism is a very unique, you know, subject, and we could we could spend a whole space kind of talking about, agrarianism in in in total. I I I actually would say that the first, you know, somebody might be able to correct me.

But, the first type of, like, organized reactionary movement that speaks to agrarianism, is Catholic in its in its flavors. There's English agrarians, the diggers, and and other kind of bohemians, but I believe that a lot of that community went Catholic, as it so I well, we would have to kind of, we would have to do a deep history of beat to be, like, definitively, are Catholics the first agrarians? You know, agrarian life was the for the majority of Christendom, agrarian life was the dominant form of cultural and social existence for the majority of Catholics. And so, so, you know, agrarianism existed a long time. That was just regular life for for a long, long time.

Agrarianism as in a reaction to modernity, as like a coherent type of social reaction to modernity. I don't know if Catholics is the first, but we are certainly early and the most robust, whether it's the land movement. There's there's been several manifest of type of, like, an agrarian reaction to modernity and and they are many of them are definitely Catholic in flavor.

Shannon: We're gonna get to the rest of our questions here. I I wanted to ask you because you you want people to Catholics to own land and to work the land. How much land? Like, does somebody need to own an acre? 10 acres?

Like, what what's what's sort of the average in these families you're seeing across these different places?

Michael: Great great great question. The one that's often asked. And I I often I wanna preemptively get to the sneaky part of that question, which is how much money do I need, to buy property, you know, to to kind of make make this work? Oh oh, I need a lot of money to do this. So, all land, is not created equal.

And so in order to homestead, out in Western Texas, I'm probably gonna be a cattle rancher and need a lot of acres. In order to homestead in, you know, the of of a lush valley in Northern Pennsylvania, I'm probably only gonna need, you know, two or three acres. I I know the most productive vegetable farm that I know of is a seven acre farm that feeds hundreds of people. I, the most the the the I know only a handful of people who are truly living the Catholic off grid, grow all their own food, completely divorced from industrial and globalized production cycles. I only know, like, a handful of people in all my land movement organizing I've met that are actually living like that.

The one that's been doing the longest thirty years, they made a commitment to a willful poverty and and just kind of growing everything they eat. They do it on about five acres, and that's right right close by to me in Upstate New York. But they do it on five acres. So, so, you know, what the land movement does before it's it's not it's not the number of acres you need. It's it's the quality of the property, but it's also your skill level in caring for that property.

You know? Because you could give somebody 20 acres, and it could just be wasted. You could give, you know, an old Italian grandma a quarter acre in the back of a city lot, and she's gonna turn it into, like, an amazing vegetable garden that feeds, like, a whole family all the time. So, so it's really skill level is a huge component of that. So the land movement wants to help people build those skills whether or not they're on property or not, whether or not they think that they can have their own property.

We are a network of people who are trying to help equip people with skills. So with what you have from where you are now, not waiting to, like, save money so you can buy the perfect spot, not waiting for some distant date where you pack your whole family up into a covered wagon and drive off to your homestead. But, actually, right now, engaging no matter where you are, engaging in a network of people who are sharing skills. You know, even if I was in an apartment, I could go to a to a, you know, farmer's market and buy a bunch of vegetables from a local farmer and can them all for my winter season. You know?

I don't need any property to do that. But once I learn how to do that, if I ever do make it to a homestead, that's a critical skill towards that step of, like, food independence. Right? Knowing how to preserve, crops that I grow. And so the land movement is here to kind of encourage people to take steps from where they are with what they have and kind of develop networks of peer to peer education and kind of support and fellowship for the development of land in hand crafts, so people are successful when when they get out to homesteads.

And even if they never do, they can live a life where they are in greater, stewardship and relationship with creation, because that's, that's the position that god has placed us in. And by doing that often, it develops, virtue in people. And that's really, again, what the land movement is about is developing Catholic virtue in ourselves and in our families, in our communities, in in in society and kind of reordering things around that. That's that that's really what we're farming or what what what we're trying to, cultivate in in in the land movement.

Shannon: Miriam's had her hand up for a while. Go ahead, Miriam.

Guest 1: Hi there. Thanks so much. Sounds really interesting. I was just wondering if your group would ever consider, building homes for poor families. I know in Canada, in Eastern Canada, I can't remember if it was Nova Scotia or Newfoundland.

There was a priest, who encouraged, the men in the, the area in the diocese to build homes for new families. And, so every new couple that got married would be built a home by the group. Now this happened, I think, in the nineteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds in Canada, in the Eastern Canada. Thanks.

Shannon: What about it, Michael? Do you know?

Michael: No. But there there's a farm up in Canada right now where I know a bunch of, like, small houses were built, and maybe it's the same thing. It has a type of, like I I think they were built originally for, like, priest retreats, but then it turned into, like, a whole agrarian center. The name is escaping me now. Maybe somebody else in here knows it.

But, Miriam Do

Guest 1: you need Madonna House? I I live

Michael: in here. Madonna House. That's the one.

Guest 1: I live right beside there.

Michael: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. There you go. So, yeah, that is precisely the one that I'm thinking of.

But, but the idea of, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. And,

Guest 1: No. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. The idea of, of, like, a parish community having, like, a simple template for a house, having, like, the skills to, like, timber frame a house for a new couple that's moved to that community so they can set themselves up on land debt free, so they can, you know, live a full Catholic life without that service of debt, that so many of us get trapped in. I I mean, this is absolutely upland movement's alley. Is it something that we're doing right now? No.

It's it's it's not. But, but I can say that the guys in my parish get together in the sunny side of the year. We get together every Friday and develop our timber framing skills with one another with the intent and purpose that we can build our kids' houses when they get bigger. So we're learning joints and how to set posts and stuff like that. It's a very slow process that that the restoration of things, in if anyone's ever tried to, like, restart a farm or, you know, restore craft skill, in themselves, it's a slow process.

But, I think you are absolutely envisioning, and kind of visioning in the right direction, Miriam, by looking backwards in the past to say, okay. This happened in some place. It was a really good thing that happened. We should we should do it again. Or, you know, are have you thought about doing this thing again?

Well, that is precisely what the land movement's about, which is looking at best practice, looking at, you know, past things that have worked, and then trying to pull them back in in into the life of the world again. And so I would love to hear more about that project. You know, if you send me an email, if you have any details or something like that, definitely something I'd love to look at.

Shannon: Damien's had his hand up for a while. Go ahead.

Guest 2: Okay. So I'll just repeat with the question I already asked in the comments. So I was saying that while reading father McNabb, it seemed that at his time, Catholics who own land misconstrued the purpose of the land, and they would merely use it as a business ultimately, and that would sell you the purpose for the land. I'm sure you already know,

Michael: where

Guest 2: I'm getting at with that. And my essential question would just be is how would you say, the people in the contemporary CLM, you know, circle, how would you say they would be, you know, doing something different from what father Vincent is condemning because father Vincent seems to emphasize, you know, using a line according to your needs, and nothing beyond that. So that's ultimately the question I have for you.

Michael: Yeah. It's a it's it's a great question. No. There is, the the there's also, father Dennis Fahey, which, addresses the idea of, like, economics, farming, and and liberalism and its effect, which which is good if if you're if McNabb and those themes in McNabb about, farming and its relationship to economics in particularly and kind of the some of the threats and dangers there. I just quick quickly would say check out the I think it's the church in farming by, father Dennis Fahey, next if you haven't read it.

But, anyway, to to the to the specific McNabb question, the land movement is primarily concerned with, what father Vincent McNabb would have called sustenance farming. That was true for the original land movement, and that's true for the contemporary land movement. However, that's not, many people who have sustenance farming skills are also people who engage in agriculture and commercial endeavors. So where they might, you know, sell chickens to their community or they might sell, you know, pigs to their community. Pigs pigs is a great one because you can't you can't really do sustenance pig keeping without actually having, like, a small market to sell extra pigs to, because that's just the way pigs work.

And so, and then pigs are a grain animal, so it's unlikely that you have your own grain mill. And so pigs are a great one to kind of, like, introduce people to that. Even small sustenance farming ends up kind of necessitating a type of, like, localized economics, whether it's mills for feed or, you know, excess of of pig pigs that you'd you'd be selling off. So, I think that if if in my read of McNabb, I just actually went through, like, a a whole fleet of the fields course with somebody or, like, taking a a group through reading fleet of the fields. Again, IHS press fleet of the fields, a great number of McNabb that sees in there.

But my read of McNabb isn't to say that the economics of farming, or or to to farm, and market farm, let's call it, in and of itself is not an evil. It's just when that becomes the predominant mode of agriculture, it it, obliterates kind of localized, a culture and relationships. And so the predominant, idea would be sustenance farming first and then tertiary, you know, or not tertiary ancillary, to to that core of sustenance farming, you would find market endeavors for land and hand crafts that you would be creating on your on your homestead. And so, and so that that is the current orientation of the land movement too. You know, first, when we teach a pig workshop, we're usually not teaching a pig workshop to, like, teach people all the economics on how to run a pig farm for profit.

We're usually teaching them how to break down, preserve, and cure a pig for their family first. But then through that network, you might actually meet pig farmers who, you know, would be happy to talk to you about the greater kind of, like, market opportunities involved with keeping pigs or chickens or something else. But I think you're right, Damien. They they the that, both Vincent McNabb and the land movement are primarily concerned with sustenance farming first.

Shannon: Susan.

Guest 3: Good evening, Shannon. Thank you for hosting this space. And and this is Michael. I apologize. I joined late, so you may have addressed this earlier.

But as far as, like, the communities that might be associated with the Catholic land movement, does one one wants to be part of the community? Does one need to be dedicated to doing a full homestead or is there a spot or, I guess, a vocation where people can come in and provide other services and resources to the community?

Michael: You know, it's that that that's a that's a great question. So one one of the things that I always like to clear up and talks about the land movement is that the land movement is not establishing, like, breakaway communities where, yeah, like like like, there's some attempt to have, like, a, like, a a planned community where everybody is, you know, how how do I explain it? Like, the land movement is just a collection of people who are interested in the restoration of, culture around them that points people towards productive use of their property and, like, old traditional skills and then, you know, relating to your neighbors in those activities. And so there's not, there's not, like, there's not, like, a boundary to the community where it's like, oh, if you're not, you know, you you have to sell everything and move into our, like, community and then grow all your own food to be, like, part of the community. That's not that's not the way the land movement functions.

The the the land movement is usually like a series of events in a location or a chapter network, and it's just people supporting each other, taking steps forward from where they are with what they have. It's, you know, maybe one day it's and we're gonna have a workshop in my land movement chapter coming up soon where we're gonna make, homemade pasta. Right? The people are gonna get together, and we're just gonna learn how to make homemade pasta. That's that's that's the night.

It's a land movement event. Learn how to make pasta. Learn how to make carbonara. That's that's the event. You know?

It's gonna talk a little bit about preserving a pig in that as well, you know, dry dry aging and curing a pig. That charcuterie kinda stuff. So, so and that's the event. You know? So the land movement is a whole suite and a whole network of people putting on kinda very kinda small scale workshops and other things, to help restore land and handcrafts in people.

There's more to it than that, but but that is a that is one of the predominant activities of of the land movement. And everybody of any skill level is welcome at those events to kinda, you know, check it out. You know? We stopped to pray the Angelus at six. We, you know, we we we as we break down the pig, we might talk about Catholic virtue or we might stop and pray together or we might, you know, talk about spiritual life or talk about family life, look at the activity through a very kind of Catholic lens.

But, but that is, yeah, the Catholic land movement isn't like utopianists who are abandoning society to all go live on a piece of property that they cut up together. Sometimes people are confused and think that's what it is. It is it's not that.

Shannon: There you go. Alright. We're in our final moments. I'm gonna give the last question and we'll circle back to Catholic Deacon.

Deacon Richard: Thanks, Shannon. I I see we hear the holy father talk talk more and more about, you know, being good stewards of the land, and the environment. And so I see some some interconnection there. Is there anything that in the Catholic land movement, that maybe perhaps is around, you know, what we're using? So I'm thinking about pesticides and things like that, for when when we're planting crops and things like that.

Is there is is is that sort of incorporated in in in the Catholic land movement?

Michael: Yes. Absolutely. The the idea of being a good steward of the land, and that in his mercy, God has left us an abundance of, gifts and creation. And our duty is to care for those gifts and to, treat them with respect and then carry them on to next generations. That is a theme that you will see stretch from Pope Leo the thirteenth in Rarum Novarum all the way through to Laudato Si and Pope Francis.

So that that is a consistent and perennial teaching of of the, church, which is, you know, a care and respect for creation and and one another. And so, and so yeah. No. Abs absolutely. I think it's part of the reason why we were invited to the for Integrated Human Flourishing recently in our trip to Rome is because the land movement is this very unique model about what care for creation looks like when we, when when when we kind of zoom down in subsidiarity and base the action in families rooted on property they own.

What does action for care for creation look like within that context? And it looks like the land movement. And so, taking good care you know, if I if my kids are gonna go play or help me harvest my vegetables, high likely that I'm not gonna go hose them down with pesticides. Right? My my my my two year old is is picking the stuff.

I'm not I'm not if I'm growing a a a small Jersey flock for milk, you know, and and and meat for my family, high likelihood I'm not gonna treat that animal, like, incredibly disrespectful or that they're gonna be connected to some giant industrial chain. Right? So when we answer questions with subsidiarity just just by the nature, the kind of ontological nature of the of the of of that, answer, we tend to box out some of the high input, high chemical, kind of disrespectful, and frankly, sometimes dangerous, land management practices we see in industrialized agriculture.

Shannon: Alright. I'm gonna come to, Michael for a brief sort of wrap up here in a second, but let me just tell you about some other spaces things going on. Just a couple of minutes ago, we started streaming on the video side, a talk we had yesterday with Drago and Imperator on Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant, the sort of Old Testament parallels where that is paralleled in the Old Testament and the New Testament counterparts. Imperator is also co hosting a space with me Friday at four on the origins of evil. And a quick reminder about our rosary spaces.

Rosary for newbies has been going on every day this week. We'll do it at 07:50AM tomorrow. And Jan is here. Jan hosts a rosary from Scotland, Five PM Eastern, Seven Days A Week. She works harder than I do because I only do mine five days a week.

So, Michael, sort of sum up, this and I hope we could do this again. Maybe we can make this a series, but sort of just sort of sum it up for us about the Catholic land movement and anything you wanted to mention that we maybe we didn't get to.

Michael: Yeah. So thank you everybody for joining the space. I hope that people found it informative and that you, enjoyed what you heard here. If the idea of the land movement is something that you're like, wow. You know, this this is very interesting, and I'd like to learn more about that.

Please go to our website. It's catholiclandmovement.info. From there, it's a great jump off point to get connected with lots of other people who are moved by the kind of work intentions and principles, the land movement. You'll be able to connect with me there, and I'd be happy to talk with you. You know, the the land movement is, growing over this next year.

We just had a very exciting, leadership meeting last night, have a big vision for the next year for the land movement. We have gotten some very good of of of positive affirmations from very high levels in the ecclesiastical. So, those developing is something that we're very much looking forward to. And, and we are we are growing. We are out there.

We are doing the work. If you are moved by, the work of the land movement, you know, I would love to help you lift your talents to the effort, by getting involved and pointing you to participation in your local area. So reach out and, and get and get in touch.

Shannon: Everybody, please follow Michael. Also, there's another account for the movement itself. Right? What's the handle on that? Do you remember off the top of your head?

Michael: I think it's Kathland movement. If if you if you just go to if you go to the website, you'll find the link to the Catholic land movement, Twitter. You know, my my personal views are my personal views, and a lot of them are land movement overlapped. But if the pure land movement, is, you know, what you're looking for, follow the land movement Twitter. There's some they kind of post great, content and stuff there.

We have we have a social media team who is constantly, putting stuff out on that account. So, so follow along there. And then, and then you'll see there's, you know, articles. If you just do a quick Google, you can find of lots of our articles and other things. I would if what we've talked about tonight, you wanna, like, dive deeper into reading and stuff, the three first reads I suggest for people now, is, reread if you haven't ever or if it's a reread for you, go back to Rerum Navarm, by Pope Leo the thirteenth.

You can find that on the Vatican's website. Read that. The second book that I would suggest people read is a book from IHS Press called Fleet of the Fields, which will give you the history of the land movement, the original English land movement, in a series of letters and essays. And then the third book that I suggest, people read is a book by Jason Craig and, Timothy Van Horn. It is a contemporary book called Liturgy of the Land.

Jason and and and, Tommy Van Horn. Sorry. Tom, not Tim. Tom. So Jason and Tommy are both involved with the contemporary land movement organizing and are doing some brilliant work, themselves, on farms and running centers and projects and stuff.

And so, and so, the three books again or the three writings to kind of orient yourself on land movement ideas and thinking, would be Rerum Navaram, Fleet of the Fields by IHS Press, and Liturgy of the Land by Tan Books. Those three will give you a good orientation, and then there's lots more reading after that. If distributism is something that you're interested in, I can help guide you with that process too. Just send me a note on the website.

Shannon: Alright, Michael. Thank you for being here.